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Steve_ Shaffer

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I don't hear too much about this club near Winged Foot, Fenway, Apawamis, Westchester and Quaker Ridge. What's the story?
« Last Edit: June 24, 2009, 11:22:05 AM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Sean Remington (SBR)

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Re:Sunningdale(Tillinghast) CC, Scarsdale, NY
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2006, 04:13:31 PM »
Steve,

Sunningdale has been discussed on GCA before. You may find something with a search. I played there in Fall of 01" and really enjoyed it. Very much "Tillie" and some really nice holes. Similar to Quaker Ridge they have a very limited area for practice area, no big deal. When I played there it was the week after a MET PGA event that was played there and the greens where great. Greens had to be rolled 13 - 14'. The 18th hole got some discussion here as it seems an uncomfortable finishing hole. I believe tree growth and tennis courts have encroached into the 18th over the years and have altered how the hole is played. Overall I think it is a great example of Tillinghast and should be right up there with it's neighbors.

Mike_DeVries

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Re:Sunningdale(Tillinghast) CC, Scarsdale, NY
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2006, 11:53:22 PM »
Steve,

I am doing a Long Range Plan for the club.  It is a very nice rolling property with a great lineage: Raynor, Travis, Robert White, and then Tillinghast, all in the first 15 years.  Why so many hands in the pot so soon, we are not quite sure, but the property has rock like all of Westchester County and Raynor left some blind shots, which may not have been appreciated by the members.  Maybe it was just too difficult for them.

Super Sean Cain is very good and I look forward to working with him in the years ahead.  Mike Moss (contributes here regularly) may tune in with some more info., as he has researched the history of the club as the former green chairman and avid member.

Best,

Mike

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:Sunningdale(Tillinghast) CC, Scarsdale, NY
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2006, 08:45:32 AM »
Paging Mike Moss

Paging Philip Young


Anyone?
« Last Edit: August 11, 2006, 08:46:13 AM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Michael J. Moss

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Re:Sunningdale(Tillinghast,et al) CC, Scarsdale, NY
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2006, 03:41:09 PM »
Good day Gentlemen;

I was out of the office yesterday using the day to set the modern consecutive three-putt record at the Westchester Country Club’s South Course in their annual Hoffine Memorial Tournament. Those devilish Walter Travis greens had me flummoxed!

To clear up something Mike DeVries wrote in his post: in spite of several attempts to dismiss me, I am STILL the exalted Chairman of the Green at Sunningdale, a position that sometimes requires the wearing of body armor when on the premises. To illustrate:  In the past two seasons, we’ve have had stretches of weather that have been unbelievably hot and humid here in the Met area. Last year, these conditions caused several clubs (some household names included) to lose greens and now we’re starting to hear the same thing this season. Thus far, Sunningdale has been extremely fortunate to have avoided these problems. Mike DeVries, who mentioned that he’s enjoyed working with our Superintendent, Sean Cain, correctly described him as “being very good.” In this case, Mike is a master of understatement! Nevertheless, when we announced that we were going to aerate our greens August 15th, and not in the fall when it’s more convenient to some members, the long knives came out.  From an agronomic point of view, it’s not even a close call, now is the right time to aerate, and Sean as our acknowledged expert has 95 per cent of our membership on board. Still we have a few loud, selfish knuckleheads that would rather risk the health of our greens than be inconvenienced. Sound familiar?

But back to the architecture. The 1926 aerial says a lot about what transpired at Sunningdale. The original Seth Raynor designed course was opened for play in July 1918, but changes were a coming, and by 1926, we can literally see the presence of several design styles. In our less than organized archives, we found a note that went out to the membership dated November, 1920. In it we’re told of the addition of several new greens, some additional tees and bunkers all done “according to the plans of Mr. Travis.” At the time, the golfing experts at Sunningdale found the course deficient in that there were “too many blind shots.” I’m also inclined to agree with Mike who theorizes that Raynor’s course was probably too difficult. Among their remedies, they decided to lift the “Alps” green (number 6) out of the hollow (where the second shot was blind) and move it into view. This, however, shortened the hole some 80 yards and was done post-Travis, around the time when Robert White was being retained “to make any changes that the Green Committee deems necessary.” This last quote goes to the heart of what we see today at Sunningdale: right from the get go, we’ve had a series of decision makers who, like a woman addicted to cosmetic surgery, couldn’t help themselves in trying to “improve” their golf course.

Again, I agree with Mike, in that we have most of Raynor’s intimate original routing on a property with land that moves really well. But like an old hardwood floor that has been sanded too many times, our golf course has had most of the Raynor, Travis and Tillinghast rubbed out by committee. Therefore, there’s no sense in even talking about a restoration, sympathetic renovation, etc. So like the recent thread regarding George and Gil’s soon to be work at Sleepy Hollow, the main charge to our architect is to make our course look like a classic era course again.  I imagine Mike’s work will involve blowing up some green complexes and then starting over and in other cases expanding/reclaiming lost putting surfaces.  In a few cases Mike will be tasked with adding contour to some of the greens where it has mysteriously disappeared.

The real charge to our architect: make Sunningdale a course you’d want to play every day. I'm psyched to have Mike DeVries's involvement and can’t wait to turn him loose!

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Sunningdale(Tillinghast,et al) CC, Scarsdale, NY
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2009, 10:47:02 AM »
I played Sunningdale yesterday and was VERY impressed with the course and Mike Devries work. Here are some pictures from his website:

11th hole







12th hole





The other work done-particularly on the 5th green(a short 4par) and 7th green9(a short 5par)- was very impressive. There are some elephants buried in those greens.

The course itself was a pleasure to play and has withstood the onslaught of this years recent June rainy season.The greens were not as fast as possible due to the wetness.The par 3 holes were a good mix of long and short and so were the par4s.

From the tips the course plays 6705y with a 71.8 rating and 131 slope. From the members tees it's 6310y and 70.4/129. It's a course that one can play everyday without getting bored and passes the Mucci test with flying colors- after finishing 18 one wants to play more.

The club itself has very impressive facilities.

Here is another thread:


http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,34073.0/
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
This club keeps a very low profile.

Paging Michael Moss.


"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Carl Nichols

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Is it just me, or do the bunkers on the new #11 more resemble those on the old #12, and vice versa? 

Joe Hancock

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Carl,

Keep in mind that the pictures you're looking at are of bunkers without sand added yet. The stark whiteness is the installed liner. Once the sand went in, and the edges grew out some, the look took on more of a natural feel rather than the antiseptic presentation you see in those pictures.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Carl Nichols

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Thanks Joe.  That explains part of it, although I was really referring to their shapes (and, to a lesser extent, their number). 

Michael J. Moss

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Steve,

I'm glad you feel your recent round at Sunningdale passes the Mucci test. High praise indeed. Mike DeVries's most recent work this past autumn on holes 5, 6 and 7 has transformed perhaps the weakest stretch on our course into what this reporter thinks is now the strongest.

I've got to salute Mike for taking some real risks, the greatest of which is our new 5th green. It is truly a throwback, and yes there is a buried elephant or two. But after many sleepless nights worrying about our membership's reaction, it's great! We had a 4-some come through last week of players from the Connecticut section of the PGA. They were on their way out to Bethpage for the Open but took a detour to play Sunningdale. Upon finishing their round our 5th hole was singled out by one of the players as being "one of the most fun short par-4 holes I've ever played." Music to my ears and it's all Mike's green. I can only describe it as a little bastard!

Our 6th hole was originally a 395 yard Raynor Alps. The drive was hit to rising fairway with the green down in a hollow presenting a blind second shot. That blind shot didn't last long with the green being brought forward into view probably around 1924-25. Last year's 6th hole was 370 yards from the back tee. Today it's 465 with the green back in the hollow, but after Mike engineered a land formation heretofore known as Hancock Ridge, the pin is in view!

Photos to come. I promise. Our superintendent, Sean Cain, wants everything to first dry out and then to fully grow in.

Michael Mimran

Officially played 1.5 holes on sunningdale today, then the skies opened up.  Such a bummer.  Course looks great, can't wait to get back there.

Mike

ed_getka

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It would be great to see more pix when someone has a chance to post. Thanks.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Matt_Ward

Have played the course a few times over the years -- but not since the work has been done.

Once again -- Westchester County demonstrates the sheer depth of layouts that are located there.

Amazing when you consider the rich diversity and the quality of the terrain that so many golf courses inhabit.

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