News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
I have really tried, but I am throwing my hands up and asking for some help here.

I have read the current Merion thread and I am up to about page 15 or so, but I am hopelessly confused. And it may be the first thread I've read here where people are posting faster than I can read.

Can someone be so kind to post a two or three paragraph summary of the discussion so far? I know it is all about that piece of the triangle property but the "new theory" is really throwing me for the loop.

Thanks in advance...

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HELP! I need a Cliffs Note version of the Merion thread!!!
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2009, 05:44:29 PM »
Richard,

The Triangle piece of property withstanding, the primary component of the argument.....errr, discussion revolves around C B Mac's role in the designing of the golf course. 

Some want to rewrite the history books and are making the claim perhaps Hugh Wilson was not the guy, and C B Mac was, and are backing up these assertions with documentation about when and if Wilson went to Europe to study the old classic holes....was this before or after the new routing was in place....etc....etc...

Then I tuned out.

What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HELP! I need a Cliffs Note version of the Merion thread!!!
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2009, 05:50:28 PM »
Richard, with apologies to Bill Shakespeare:

It is a tale told by idiots, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

You're welcome.

Bogey

In all seriousness, I admire the collective diligence and intellect of the few posters carrying that thread.

PS:  Chambers Bay repeat in August?
« Last Edit: May 27, 2009, 05:55:35 PM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Mike Sweeney

Re: HELP! I need a Cliffs Note version of the Merion thread!!!
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2009, 05:59:16 PM »
I am a Philly Guy living in New York, so I am uniquely qualified to answer.

1. Here is the Merion history, please read this: http://merion.memberstatements.com/tour/tours.cfm?tourid=16114

2. Here is David's essay: http://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/the-missing-faces-of-merion-by-david-moriarty-2
In a nutshell, David views a visit(s) by CB Macdonald (and friends) to Merion in a manner that he feels CB Mac should get more design credit.

This is not a joke, but Philly guys don't let big New York guys into their backyard and have them tell them what to do. My Dad was like that in the medical field, and the members of Merion were/are like that. It is just in the DNA of the town since the days that the Nations Capital moved from Philly to New York.

Thus, Hugh Wilson was the head of the Committee that built the golf course. Go see how the Committee system runs at the modern day Merion Cricket Club to understand the foundation of Merion GC is a system where one man would not nor does not dominate a committee. That Committee took input from a variety of people internally and externally for years, with the big changes coming after the Merion East opening when Ardmore Avenue got too busy and holes had to be changed. CB Mac was clearly one of the early Committee advisors and I think David's essay brought out some of the data to support his help to Merion.

Now all the back and forth is a bunch of egos run wild grabbing and bits and pieces of data to "prove" their view.

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HELP! I need a Cliffs Note version of the Merion thread!!!
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2009, 06:05:05 PM »
Mike, that is pretty good.

So, what I am wondering is, how does the sale of that piece of property prove one or the other on MacDonald's involvement?

Also, what is the new NGLA theory?

It is amazing that I am losing more and more ground on that thread everyday even though I probably go through a couple of pages a day.

Michael, ANYTIME!!! Looking forward to it.

Mike Sweeney

Re: HELP! I need a Cliffs Note version of the Merion thread!!!
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2009, 06:26:50 PM »

Mike, that is pretty good.

So, what I am wondering is, how does the sale of that piece of property prove one or the other on MacDonald's involvement?

THANKFULLY I HAVE NOT FOLLOWED THAT CLOSELY, SO i DON'T KNOW. IN A DIFFERENT LIFE I HAVE DONE A FEW THINGS IN REAL ESTATE, AND OFTEN WHAT HAPPENS ON PAPER IS NOT WHAT REALLY HAPPENS. THUS, I DON'T THINK EITHER SIDE CAN PROVE THE LAND SWAP WITH CERTAINTY.

Also, what is the new NGLA theory?

SAME AS ALWAYS, EMAIL UNCLE GEORGE BAHTO.

SERIOUSLY, THINGS WERE BUILT OVER TIME BACK THEN AND WORKING IN GROUPS WAS THE NORM. NATIONAL AND MERION TOOK YEARS TO SETTLE IN. IN THE MODERN WORLD, WE ALWAYS LOOK TO THE CEO, THE ARCHITECT, THE POPE WHO DOMINATES AND IS A GENIUS. I WOULD RATHER SEE A GOOD TEAM. (SEE THE NBA ORLANDO VS CLEVELAND SERIES).


It is amazing that I am losing more and more ground on that thread everyday even though I probably go through a couple of pages a day.

Michael, ANYTIME!!! Looking forward to it.

C. Squier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HELP! I need a Cliffs Note version of the Merion thread!!!
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2009, 06:49:52 PM »
Thanks to Mike Sweeney and others who have responded in this thread.  I, like the original poster, am hopelessly beyond catching up to the Merion threads and a synopsis is very helpful. 

Phil_the_Author

Re: HELP! I need a Cliffs Note version of the Merion thread!!!
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2009, 06:52:52 PM »
From the latest version of Cliff notes:

1- Merion was designed by Wilson...
2- No, Merion was designed by CBM & H.H. Barker did a routing and here's my essay to prove it...
3- You're full of crap!
4- No, you're full of crap!
5- No, you're full of crap (back and forth for about 20 pages finally costing two passionate gentleman historians their memberships)
6- More pages of "No, you're full of crap" interspersed with some fascinating information and debate...
7- A pause, quiet peace, enforced cease-fire, however one defines it...
8- Several new threads with more of the same...
9- Latest threads far more polite and with more great info and debate...

Jim Colton

Re: HELP! I need a Cliffs Note version of the Merion thread!!!
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2009, 06:54:36 PM »
Has there ever been a course tour of Merion on GCA?  Sadly, I know more about the land swap than the course itself.

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HELP! I need a Cliffs Note version of the Merion thread!!!
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2009, 06:56:47 PM »
ROFL!!!

That is a classic post, Philip.

Thanks again to Mike Sweeney for his help as well.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: HELP! I need a Cliffs Note version of the Merion thread!!!
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2009, 07:09:15 PM »
Richard

I would suggest that you read “War & Peace” by L N Toystoy, it will get to the point quicker and I expect you will be able to put it down when you have finished.

Alternatively see the film that Tom & David produced based upon this topic, its called ‘The Neverending Story’, well that was until Ran stepped in yesterday.

However, one thing is for certain, we will be hearing more about the Merion Story before long.

We will all need to live long to get to the bottom of this one.

Melvyn
« Last Edit: May 27, 2009, 07:13:53 PM by Melvyn Hunter Morrow »

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: HELP! I need a Cliffs Note version of the Merion thread!!!
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2009, 07:41:12 PM »
Jim,

Good point and I second it.  I don't know a damn thing about Merion other than what I read in an article that Mark Fine sent me the day I became a member.  Someone please post some pics or something.

 I must say though, coming in from work and reading the latest two pages everyday is getting to be quite hilarious and sort of like watching a self licking ice cream cone.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HELP! I need a Cliffs Note version of the Merion thread!!!
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2009, 08:18:02 PM »
Take a look:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rx4WVF1wav4

Or come to Philadelphia for the Walker Cup in September.

« Last Edit: May 27, 2009, 08:24:24 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HELP! I need a Cliffs Note version of the Merion thread!!!
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2009, 08:42:07 PM »
Mike,
I live in metro Philly, but I'm nota Philly guy.  I moved here in '93 from Oregon, and was born and raised and went to college in Buffalo, NY.

But I love everything about Merion.  Everything.

I remember seeing the 1980 US Open at Merion as a college sophomore who was playing munis (the one I played most often was a very good muni).  But Merion was a dream and a distant one at that.

I've been lucky enough to get out to Merion several times, and I've been made to feel like a king every time I was there. From the incredible clubhouse staff to the world-class super to the best caddies I've ever used, it's pure bliss.

And the golf course is beyond amazing.  I think it's the best golf course I've ever played.  No - I KNOW it's the best I've ever played. 

But, like I said, it's a community of really nice folks that care about what they have.  They're not flashy, they're not concerned about anything but hospitality (and fast play!).

Where else do you have a club with a world class golf course and another course that's a ton of fun with a homey feel?

So, yes - I'm a Merionphile.

That said, here's my summary..
The course's design has been attributed to Hugh Wilson since it opened.  A well-meaning and passionate gentleman has challenged the history with the theme that CBM actually may have designed the course.

I'm firmly in the Hugh Wilson camp, and I'm not a "Philly guy".  Hell, my accent is more Chicago than Philly :)

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HELP! I need a Cliffs Note version of the Merion thread!!!
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2009, 09:25:26 PM »
Cliff Notes version

-----

Did such and such

Did not

Did too

Oh yeah?

Did too

You suck

-----

In a nutshell

Kyle Harris

Re: HELP! I need a Cliffs Note version of the Merion thread!!!
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2009, 09:51:04 PM »
Mike Sweeney,

My upcoming IMO essay on Philadelphia Public Golf will state:

"Philadelphia suffers from being the town tasked with constantly trying to outdo the New York minute."

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HELP! I need a Cliffs Note version of the Merion thread!!!
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2009, 09:56:02 PM »
Has there ever been a course tour of Merion on GCA?  Sadly, I know more about the land swap than the course itself.

Jim:

A good photo essay from the estimable Sean Arble from a year ago:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,34519.0/

Mike Sweeney

Re: HELP! I need a Cliffs Note version of the Merion thread!!!
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2009, 10:12:28 PM »
I am a Philly Guy living in New York, so I am uniquely qualified to answer.



Holy Molers Batman, I am the Kryptonite to the Merion threads on GCA. I go out to dinner and expected to be tossed from GCA.com. Could it be? Is it possible?



Nobody has challenged my statements? David, Tom, Mike? is it possible? I am right?

PPS. I think Merion and National probably had similar backgrounds and each took 20+ years to be the club that many love today. In the case of NGLA, it was the vision of a pissed off member of Shinnecock that wanted to stick to his former club. In the case of Merion, it was a bunch of Philly guys who wanted to stick it to New York!

Or in the view of Seinfeld, they are great because of SPITE!

_________________________________________________-

New scene.

Frank and Estelle's house.

Estelle: So, Georgie, we have some big news for you.

George: Big news?

Estelle: We're moving to Florida.

George (ecstatic): What? You're moving to Florida!?! That's wonderful! I'm

so happy! (pause) For you! I'm so happy for you! Oh, what do you need this

cold weather for?

Frank: Has nothing to do with the weather, it's because of the Seinfelds.

George: What do you mean?

Frank: They don't want us there, so we're going. We're moving right into Del

Boca Vista!

George: So you're moving there for spite!

Frank: Absolutely. No one tells Frank Costanza what to do!

George: That's right, who the hell are they? How dare they?!

Estelle: So, Georgie, are you gonna come to visit us?

George: Oh, every chance I get.

Estelle (warmly): Ohhh.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HELP! I need a Cliffs Note version of the Merion thread!!!
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2009, 01:41:35 AM »
Richard,

I wouldn't bother trying to read that thread.  There have been a few mildly interesting things come out if it, but for the the most part it has been a monumental waste of time.  I should know.    Mike Sweeney has it right about what you might want to consider looking at if you are interested.   The link to the Merion website is pretty much a Cliffs Note version of the Merion history book.  My Essay needs a few updates and there are some things I need to change, but it will definitely give you an idea of where I stand.

As for Mr. Sweeney's description of what is really going on with the New York and Philadelphia dynamic, it is interesting but I have no comment.  While I did live very close to Merion for a period of time, I am basically Montanan living in L.A. so I'll stay out of that one.

I would like to clarify just a few things though, since you might find my essay harder to follow than the recent thread.

1.  I've never been concerned with determining who should be "credited" with designing Merion.  Rather, I am trying to figure out what actually happened, and how Merion itself fits into the development of golf course design in America.   

2.  While I agree that Merion East was largely a "team effort" with a number of individuals and groups making significant contributions over a long period of time, the scope of my essay was quite narrow, focusing only on the initial creation of the course and even stopping short of any real discussion of the holes themselves.  Yet even with this narrow scope many different individuals contributed and in my opinion some of those contributions have been ignored, mischaracterized, and/or misunderstood. 

3.  I have great respect for what Hugh Wilson contributed to golf generally and to Merion specifically.   My essay was not intended to be a slap at him, Merion, or anyone else, but was intended to an honest exploration of the facts as I understand them, and my admiration for Wilson and his accomplishments has grown throughout the process.   (If anything, I feel like Wilson has been underappreciated for what he accomplished at Merion throughout his tenure, but that is a whole other can of worms.)

"So, what I am wondering is, how does the sale of that piece of property prove one or the other on MacDonald's involvement?"

Good question.  In short, my essay briefly describes the Francis land swap and its potential importance to determining the timing of the routing of the course, and the timing helps determine who was involved.  I won't bore you twice by going into it here.    This current thread and some other threads have been about trying to undermine those few paragraphs of my essay that deal with the land swap, I guess because those who did not take kindly to the essay see it as the lynchpin to my entire argument.  It's not, but they haven't figured that out yet.

Also, what is the new NGLA theory?

Again, a paragraph or two in my essay compared how NGLA acquired land for their course with how Merion acquired land for their course.      Mike is very excited because Joe Bausch found a few articles and Mike thinks they refute my description of how NGLA acquired land for their course.  So again it is about trying to undermine a few paragraphs of my essay.  I disagree with Mike, but would like him to start a thread on it, since NGLA's creation is interesting and others might want to get involved.  Plus that thread needs no more tangents.

Hope this helps.  If you bother with the essay and have any questions or comments, I'd be glad to consider and address them.  (The formatting got a little screwed up in the transfer to the new site, but I am sure you can figure it out.)
__________________________________

For those wanting to learn about the course, here is a link to a site with some detailed photos of Merion East and many other great courses.

http://www.golfarchitecturepictures.com/Web%20Galleries/USA/Pennsylvania/Merion%20East/index.html

« Last Edit: May 28, 2009, 01:44:48 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HELP! I need a Cliffs Note version of the Merion thread!!!
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2009, 03:02:19 PM »
Thanks, David. That clears up things quite a bit.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: HELP! I need a Cliffs Note version of the Merion thread!!!
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2009, 05:03:32 PM »
David,

I'm prepared to accept Macdonald's word over those contained in newspaper articles.

Interestingly enough, one of Joe's articles claims that the land was acquired in December of 1906 when Macdonald states that title to the property was taken in the Spring of 2007.

Mike still thinks that Dewey won the 1948 Presidential election.

Did you see the
 
Famous photograph of Truman grinning and holding up a copy of the newspaper that (erroneously) announced his defeat

Mike Sweeney

Re: HELP! I need a Cliffs Note version of the Merion thread!!!
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2009, 05:59:27 AM »

Dave

I understand what you think, and respect your right to think as you do, but given the absence of any evidence to the contrary, I do not think that M&W were the driving creative force at Merion.  Show me some evidence and I might think otherwise.

Absence of evidence?   Hmmm.   Perhaps you just aren't familiar with the evidence.   

If not M&W, then who?  I've seen no verifiable evidence that Wilson had a thing to do with the original routing or even that he was involved in the project at the time the original routing was most likely considered.  And once he did become involved I am not so sure that the did much of anything until he consulted with an expert or three.  It wasn't his nature to have resource like CBM and not use it.    CBM chose the final routing.  That's evidence of something, isn't it?

Are there some facts that I don't know about?   Or are you just sticking with the old legend even though substantial portions of it have been disproven?


David

I've spent far too much time on theses threads hoping to find some "evidence" for all the dogs in this fight, and I have seen nothing which leads me to believe that Macdonald was anything other than an advisor to the Merion Committee.  Sorry, but your work, while impressive in its scope and passion, is just not convincing to me.

As to the question, "If not M&W, then who?", the obvious answer is "The Committee."  This is the best way to describe the design credit for many of today's great golf courses, including Portmarnock, Pine Valley, Dornoch (and as some of the recently presented evidence implies) NGLA.  There is always, of course, someone on any effective Committee who is the driving force:  Macdonald at NGLA, Sutherland at Dornoch, Pickeman at Portmarnock, Crump at Pine Valley.  We have the word of the Committee at Merion that their driving force was Hugh Wilson.  That is enough evidence for me to think he deserves more of the design credit than anyone else.

Rich

David should get credit for bringing some interesting facts  to light, but I agree with Rich.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HELP! I need a Cliffs Note version of the Merion thread!!!
« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2009, 07:38:44 AM »
I long ago came to the conclusion that it will always be a matter of opinion.  In the end, Merion will credit Wilson, perhaps with a Roger Maris asterisk, but there is some reason to at least consider more deeply the role played by MacDonald in routing and initial hole design for those who want to know "the rest of the story." 

I say that because of a few reasons.  For one, Merion has acknowledged and the record shows that CBM reviewed and in the words of Mike Cirba, approved one of the five plans under consideration.  If they waited for his approval, then he was pretty signifigant in the process whether he did the routings work or merely tweaked it and approved it, no?

Consider three possible non Merion attribution scenarios -

Jim Urbina doing five routings while Tom Doak is on another project.  Doak comes back, reviews the five and selects one.  Doak gets the credit.  Or Jim Lipe doing routings for Jack and Jack having final say.  JN gets the credit.

However, at Old Mac, he chose to let Jim be co-designer and get have some of the well deserved co-design credit. 

Thirdly, the owner of Tidewater has Rees Jones do a preliminary routing and then runs with it and takes the credit, but later, word leaks out that Rees really did the heavy lifting, despite the owner taking credit.

In each case, there were more than one person working on the project in different ways, but the idea of who gets the credit was decided in everyone's (well, perhaps not Rees!) mind before the project began, and in public, that attribution is unlikely to change, unless Doak/Nicklaus, Doak and the Owner decides it should change.

That is why DM fights such an uphill battle here - as far as we can tell, no one at Merion wants to buy into a different version of their history, much like you would not like to find out that your dear old uncle was really Mom's lover, or something like that!  You grew up with a certain vision on life that comforts you, which is perfectly understandable.

That said, I can follow his logic, even if the documents don't conclusively prove that the land swap took place earlier than the meeting minutes show.   He needs just a few more documents to make his case, but he doesn't have them, and maybe they don't exist.  And, to believe his version, we have to believe that the April meeting resolutions were simply cleaning up several events that happened months before, which is not implausible either.  The simplest explanation of why that triangle was on the Nov 10, 1910 plan was that it was under consideration for the golf course in some fashion at that time.  The second simplest explanation is that the line was supposed to have been cut off at the college property and was swapped later.

I will say that there is a greater likelihood that any newfound documents would show that CBM was MORE involved than would show he was less involved than currently believed, rather than less, given we can't "take off the table" the visits and reports already known about.  However, I was wrong about the first CBM letter to Lloyd, which talked only about soil and I could be wrong about this.  Its quite possible that someone could find the original notes of the Merion minutes credting him and find that cooler heads struck out the end of the sentence "We are grateful for CBM's help, but he is such a windbag, we can't take him anymore!"

So, there is the Cliff notes version (appropriate, since this whole thing has gone over the Cliff) - It will always be a matter of (strong) opinion or interpretation, no matter how many more facts about Merion's legacy surface.  And, with Mike Cirba showing more and more old photos of Merion in the early years, it is pretty clear that Wilson and others continued to make changes in the early years and that his "legend" is justified from the feature design evolution alone, because even if they started with many CBM templates, it seems clear that they wanted to generally go a different direction (and buckding old CB couldn't have been easy).  With enough photos, THAT would be an interesting examination in how one of America's great courses truly came to be great.  And, it might even have further applications to gca in general about how to create a great course!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Cirba

Re: HELP! I need a Cliffs Note version of the Merion thread!!!
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2009, 07:55:45 AM »
Short version...

We're just trying to create buzz to drum up lagging sales for thia year's Walker Cup.  ;)

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: HELP! I need a Cliffs Note version of the Merion thread!!!
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2009, 08:26:05 AM »
Mike,

So, that's it!

I was wondering last night what would be DM's next research project....I understand he is going to blow the lid off the fact that the famous Turtle Soup at Pine Valley is really chicken.....
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back