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PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Good Reasons To Take A Cart
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2009, 07:46:34 AM »
Six-hours for a round of golf? I'd rather go and see Mama Mia again!

Seeing Mama Mia with the fiance FELT like a six-hour round!!!  :)
H.P.S.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Good Reasons To Take A Cart
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2009, 08:37:51 AM »
Seriously how can a round of golf take 6 hours?

A four ball with carts should be well under 4 hours even with long drives between holes. I would have honestly walked in (or driven!),
golf has no enjoyment in such time spans.

Over the last 4 days the longest round I've played was 4hrs 15mins playing off the medal tees at Royal Birkdale in a strong wind and also waiting to let two pairs come through during the round. A three ball at Swinley Forest with some waiting around took 3hrs 15mins.

It is no wonder younger people are being turned off golf. A young married man wants to tee of on Sunday morning at 8.30, play 18 holes have a beer with his mates and be home for lunch not supper!

Wouldn't that depend on the wife you are going home to?

As to the 4 hour round, there have been studies that show some courses have so much walk/ride time between tees and greens that they simply do take a half hour longer to play than an older course with adjacent greens and tees.

As to having a place to sit, I second that. I wanted to walk the opening of the Quarry, but someone suggested that I would need a place to sit on the long waits between shots, which turned out to be true with the media, VIP's and whoever playing that might be playing their first round of the decade.

I also believe carts slow things down mostly because people drive to their cart partners shot and wait, rather than drop off and then go across the fw to hit their ball.  By being paired in a cart, you have about 18-30 fw shots (depending on handicap) that should take an average of 3 minutes to play, but when you add in waiting for your cart partner's 3 minutes, turn into 5 or 6 minutes to play. That adds 36-90 minutes per round right there.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Two Good Reasons To Take A Cart
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2009, 09:26:15 AM »
Anthony

What is a cart?  :-*

Does it make the ball travel further? ???

Will it help the ball in bad weather? :-\

How far will the ball go if you hit it with a cart? :-X

Interesting that some of the definitions seem to imply that they are mobile seats for the older player. :o

A serious question to architects/designers, relating to value for money in the original investment - how much does a course have to pay , first to buy them, then secure facility to park them when not in use, to build cart paths around the course and an average annual maintenance cost to repair carts & tracks?
I would imagine that it would be a considerable amount of money, which of course will have to be refunded by the golfers. A large financial burden for club, members and golfers compared to a course with a few seats and no carts or cart tracks, allowing money to be invested in to the course only.

But then we must not forget that carts make life so much easier and golf is just a ride in the park for many. Who said golf is challenging, its bad enough trying to get a little ball in a little hole 18 times without having to walk some stupid 6,000 yards (give or take) as well. :P :-\

Melvyn

PS Anthony  as for socialising, sorry cannot see it myself, walking will be more productive, I would have thought that a four ball would be together longer down the fairways. But then that is just my opinion. 8)  

PPS Health and long life has nothing to do with this question then?  

« Last Edit: May 21, 2009, 09:38:06 AM by Melvyn Hunter Morrow »

Anthony Gray

Re: Two Good Reasons To Take A Cart
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2009, 09:43:52 AM »


  I prefer to walk personaly BUT on the 13th hole after 4 hours in the sun my nose caught on fire so the shade from a buggy would have helped my nose. In the US we don't have many Old Grey Towns. ;D

  Glad to see you posting Melvyn,

  Anthony


Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Good Reasons To Take A Cart
« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2009, 09:57:42 AM »
After reading this, the umpteenth thread on golf carts vs. walking, I'd think that by now certain conclusions could have been reached.
Everyone knows the benefits of walking and we all know the benefits of carting it.
We all know that carts make money above and beyond their costs and we all know that walking only courses make money without them. We all know that there are courses and conditions where a cart makes it possible for a course to be built and to be playable, and we all know that there are courses where a cart seems to be a ridiculous luxury.  

I know 'your' reasons for walking are as valid as 'my' reasons for riding, so barring any medical necessity it comes down to a matter of free choice, no more, no less.

But, please continue.  ::)


 



"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Tom Huckaby

Re: Two Good Reasons To Take A Cart
« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2009, 10:06:27 AM »
Jim:

You're lucky I'm not near you because if I was, I could kiss you.  ;)

My lord was that artfully and PERFECTLY expressed.  Outside of who designed Merion, no horse has been beating to a more horrible death in this forum than the "walking or riding" issue.  Jeez one would think we could all let it finally lie.. as you state so well.

Truthfully however, I thought Anthony introduced a new element to this with the social aspect - that is interesting at least.  But the overall general issue?

Time to let go....

 ;D

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Good Reasons To Take A Cart
« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2009, 10:11:33 AM »
Cart or no cart 6 hour rounds are destroying golf.

Yesterday playing West Lancs a classic old English links 2 young ladies followed us to the 10th tee where they were starting their round. Both were clearly 4 handicap or less one may have been scratch. We let them tee off and waited 5 mins or so to play our second shots. Over the remaining 8 holes we waited twice to play shots and they never got a full hole in front of us.

This was a two ball of good players (not in a compo), we were a 4 ball of middle aged farts playing 18 holes teeing off at 8.45am after retiring well past 1.00am and several beers the previous evening. We were playing seriously and putting out.
Cave Nil Vino

Anthony Gray

Re: Two Good Reasons To Take A Cart
« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2009, 10:22:04 AM »
Jim:

You're lucky I'm not near you because if I was, I could kiss you.  ;)

My lord was that artfully and PERFECTLY expressed.  Outside of who designed Merion, no horse has been beating to a more horrible death in this forum than the "walking or riding" issue.  Jeez one would think we could all let it finally lie.. as you state so well.

Truthfully however, I thought Anthony introduced a new element to this with the social aspect - that is interesting at least.  But the overall general issue?

Time to let go....

 ;D

  First of all I was near Tom and he never thought about a kiss. As for the social element. Tommy had to have a cart and because of his celebrity status time with him in the culbhouse was very limited. At the clubhouse if all my attention did not go toward Garland he started to pout. Riding with Tommy was a treat. I rode with Bill McBride on Monday but because I had to give Garland alot of attention I could not enjoy Bill as much as Tommy.

  Anthony

« Last Edit: May 21, 2009, 10:31:28 AM by Anthony Gray »

Tom Huckaby

Re: Two Good Reasons To Take A Cart
« Reply #33 on: May 21, 2009, 10:43:56 AM »
Anthony:

As unlucky (stupid?) as we were to walk that round.... you were lucky the subject of walking v. riding in general did not come up... lest the smooch be laid upon you.

 ;D

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Good Reasons To Take A Cart
« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2009, 10:57:38 AM »
Jim:
You're lucky I'm not near you because if I was, I could kiss you.  ;)

That pretty much seals the deal for me, I won't be sharing a cart with you!  :o
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Tom Huckaby

Re: Two Good Reasons To Take A Cart
« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2009, 11:05:27 AM »
Jim:
You're lucky I'm not near you because if I was, I could kiss you.  ;)

That pretty much seals the deal for me, I won't be sharing a cart with you!  :o

Probably wise.
 ;D ;D

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Two Good Reasons To Take A Cart
« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2009, 11:24:08 AM »
Jim & Tom

I fully understand your opinion and that carts are American and used in a big way over there. That fine, I do not have a problem with that, but and it is a big but the subject is very important to many.

I expect that you may have grown up with the ubiquitous cart but we have not. I and my friends have seen the courses we loved scarred with these bloody unsightly cart tracks. Whilst I will not go as far as to say ruined, we feel they are destroying the courses just because modern Man is just becoming more lazy.

I have no wish of interfering in the enjoyment of others on a course as long as their activities do not interrupt our enjoyment of the game. Carts and their tracks are certainly doing that and they do interfere with our game.

So, I am sorry you are frustrated with some of us talking about it but in our eyes it is destroying the game, certainly in our country. You can play the Nero and do sod all as Rome burns, but some of us feel that we need to keep the subject to the forefront. It also reflects upon the GCA and financial burden of clubs, which in this day and age is rather serious. Yes, we may certainly be in the minority and have very little hope of any changes in the immediate or distant future. But, Golf is and always has been a walking game. It was in India, Australia, South Africa, etc. etc, who also have rather dry or hot, wet and humid climates but they stayed true to walking, until someone came along and wanted to make the game easy for themselves. I expect they just could not hack it unlike all the previous generations.

I cannot talk for others but when I worked in the Tropics in the 1970’s, I worked in the hot, dry as well as wet and humid conditions, I played in the same conditions, air conditioners was not the norm back then nor did they have carts. In Africa, I played on red earth with the odd blade of grass spaced every foot or so, it was very hot. 

This subject will not go away, its here and until the problem is faced it will keep reoccurring. Carts are here, that I accept but what about the Golfer who just wants to play his traditional game without the eyesore or distraction of carts or paths. Is it not time that clubs and architects recognised that golf is first and foremost a game based upon Walking and provide the amenities to play traditional golf. Want carts, fine, but hide the cart paths, keep them well clear of the Fairways, Greens & Tees. If the development forces a long distance between Green and next Tee then the design of the whole needs to be re-considered as again Golf is not about long distance between Greens & Tees. Yet the attitude seems clear just bang in cart s and paths that will resolve the problem – the easy solution, sod the game of golf is what these people are actually saying and expect us all to accepting it. Come on guys this is not the spirit that founded America or for that matter The USA. Your forefathers thought that certain things were worth fighting for, that’s just as true today as it was back then.  But don’t let apathy win – it has the habit of  screw up everything in the end.

Yes, apathy and not understand the full consequences of the issue has allowed this course of events to occur. It is never too late to correct a wrong. The fight continues and is fundamental to modern golf course architecture IMHO.

As we understand your frustrations, please understand ours.

Melvyn

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Good Reasons To Take A Cart
« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2009, 12:06:11 PM »
HUCKABY COMES OUT OF THE CLOSET!

Jim:

You're lucky I'm not near you because if I was, I could kiss you.  ;)

 ;D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Good Reasons To Take A Cart
« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2009, 12:11:30 PM »
...we all know that walking only courses make money without them. We all know that there are courses and conditions where a cart makes it possible for a course to be built and to be playable...

So your argument is that one must ride a cart while playing a golf hole so that he may have transport from one hole to the next?

With modern technology, it should be fairly easy to station a preprogrammed cart by each green to transport players to the next hole. But you know what? I bet players would forgo that to take a cart for the entire round. Such is the mindset of the American golfer.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tom Huckaby

Re: Two Good Reasons To Take A Cart
« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2009, 12:12:01 PM »
Heck Garland, aren't we all gay in Northern California?

 ;D

And Melvyn, your position has been articulated countless times before.  I for one most definitely get it, and I suspect all other readers do as well.  I for one understand your frustrations, and supsect all other readers do as well.

But I also think very little can be added to this conversation at this point, as Jim Kennedy says (thus earning my admiration if not smooches).

Time to move on.

TH

Anthony Gray

Re: Two Good Reasons To Take A Cart
« Reply #40 on: May 21, 2009, 12:17:34 PM »


  FOR THE LOVE OF GOD....will somebody report this thread to the moderator and get it deleted and disallow the person who started it to ever start another thread ever again.

  Anthony


Tom Huckaby

Re: Two Good Reasons To Take A Cart
« Reply #41 on: May 21, 2009, 12:21:12 PM »


  FOR THE LOVE OF GOD....will somebody report this thread to the moderator and get it deleted and disallow the person who started it to ever start another thread ever again.

  Anthony



Now now, let's not go crazy (crazier?) here.
As I say, the reasons you added are good.  Discussing those seems interesting to me.
It's just taking this to the old more general "carts are ruining the game, walking is the only way to go" argument that is tiresome.  That was not your intent, was it?


Melvyn Morrow

Re: Two Good Reasons To Take A Cart
« Reply #42 on: May 21, 2009, 12:30:17 PM »

Tom

You both have the right to your opinions, but so do others. The subject is just too important to move on.

It seems to come down to its golf I don’t care against its golf and I bloody well do care.

That is the difference between you and me. It’s not about winning, it never has been but it is about the right to play golf in its natural walking form. Use or don’t use carts, that is your choice but I will continue voicing my opinion on all subjects dear to my heart.

Golf is a Waking game and IMHO designs should be based upon that fundamental principal.

Melvyn

PS If you have had enough, may I suggest that you do not read or respond to any topics related to carts.
     
PPS If golf is that tiresome why bother with it, Tom.

Anthony Gray

Re: Two Good Reasons To Take A Cart
« Reply #43 on: May 21, 2009, 12:37:43 PM »


  When I rode with Tommy we had wonderful discussions. If I would have walked like the other two players there is no way that would have happened. The highlight for me was not the course, not my score, but listening to Tommy. I could have enjoyed the course more and the other two players more if I would have chosen to walk, BUT not Tommy. I am a richer man because I used a cart.

  Anthony


Anthony Gray

Re: Two Good Reasons To Take A Cart
« Reply #44 on: May 21, 2009, 12:42:04 PM »
...we all know that walking only courses make money without them. We all know that there are courses and conditions where a cart makes it possible for a course to be built and to be playable...

So your argument is that one must ride a cart while playing a golf hole so that he may have transport from one hole to the next?

With modern technology, it should be fairly easy to station a preprogrammed cart by each green to transport players to the next hole. But you know what? I bet players would forgo that to take a cart for the entire round. Such is the mindset of the American golfer.


  Bayley..........TOO much irish cream


Tom Huckaby

Re: Two Good Reasons To Take A Cart
« Reply #45 on: May 21, 2009, 12:56:36 PM »

Tom

You both have the right to your opinions, but so do others. The subject is just too important to move on.

It seems to come down to its golf I don’t care against its golf and I bloody well do care.

That is the difference between you and me. It’s not about winning, it never has been but it is about the right to play golf in its natural walking form. Use or don’t use carts, that is your choice but I will continue voicing my opinion on all subjects dear to my heart.

Golf is a Waking game and IMHO designs should be based upon that fundamental principal.

Melvyn

PS If you have had enough, may I suggest that you do not read or respond to any topics related to carts.
     
PPS If golf is that tiresome why bother with it, Tom.

Melvyn:

What's making me sad here is "here we go again."  We seem to always be at cross-purposes.  That is certainly neither my intent, nor my desire.

Because what you seem to miss - AGAIN - is that I agree with you.  In a perfect golf world carts ought to be utterly cryit downe.  Designing courses with carts in mind is in general not a good thing.  The game is much better played when walking.  Have I missed anything?  If so, just assume I agree.

I just don't see what purpose discussing it here AGAIN serves.  As Jim Kennedy states, all positions have been clearly articulated. 

But if you want to beat this dead horse, of course you are entitled to do so.  My quite sincere desire however is that you'd devote your considerable wit and talents to something else....

However, it does seem very important to you, and you do seem to believe that some good can come of this.

So fight the fight, my friend.  I suppose I shall try to stay silent and not comment from now on.  The futility of it all, well.. that does just invite comment... out of friendship more than anything.

Hopefully you can understand that.

Tom Huckaby

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Good Reasons To Take A Cart
« Reply #46 on: May 21, 2009, 01:01:11 PM »
...
So fight the fight, my friend.  I suppose I shall try to stay silent and not comment from now on.  ...
Tom Huckaby

We can only hope!
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Two Good Reasons To Take A Cart
« Reply #47 on: May 21, 2009, 01:20:56 PM »

Tom

I would value your constructive comments.

I also do read and understand your position, it is just that I do not want to leave it as it is. If we do then we may find that all that is left are No Waking Courses.

Of course, it will be a long fight as the cart mentality has already grabbed the weaker willed golfers. I understand that you agree and your opinion. It is an unfair world and the only way is to persist and defend the things that we feel are important is to continue our efforts in whichever way we can. Walking is part of the Spirit of Golf and I am unwilling to stick a knife into something I enjoy.

You have more carts over there than we do, while I do not expect too much will change in the USA, it might, just might here. I do not see it as hopeless as you do, as many have feel as I do. Therefore, I will keep voicing my opinion, but that is not an attack on you or Jim. 

Melvyn

Michael Blake

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Good Reasons To Take A Cart
« Reply #48 on: May 21, 2009, 01:29:08 PM »
This subject will not go away

I think 1499 of us wishes it will.


Jim Kennedy, thanks for your reasonable posts.  Well said.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Good Reasons To Take A Cart
« Reply #49 on: May 21, 2009, 01:35:28 PM »
Jim & Tom

I fully understand your opinion and that carts are American and used in a big way over there. That fine, I do not have a problem with that, but and it is a big but the subject is very important to many.

I expect that you may have grown up with the ubiquitous cart but we have not. I and my friends have seen the courses we loved scarred with these bloody unsightly cart tracks. Whilst I will not go as far as to say ruined, we feel they are destroying the courses just because modern Man is just becoming more lazy.

I have no wish of interfering in the enjoyment of others on a course as long as their activities do not interrupt our enjoyment of the game. Carts and their tracks are certainly doing that and they do interfere with our game.

So, I am sorry you are frustrated with some of us talking about it but in our eyes it is destroying the game, certainly in our country. You can play the Nero and do sod all as Rome burns, but some of us feel that we need to keep the subject to the forefront. It also reflects upon the GCA and financial burden of clubs, which in this day and age is rather serious. Yes, we may certainly be in the minority and have very little hope of any changes in the immediate or distant future. But, Golf is and always has been a walking game. It was in India, Australia, South Africa, etc. etc, who also have rather dry or hot, wet and humid climates but they stayed true to walking, until someone came along and wanted to make the game easy for themselves. I expect they just could not hack it unlike all the previous generations.

I cannot talk for others but when I worked in the Tropics in the 1970’s, I worked in the hot, dry as well as wet and humid conditions, I played in the same conditions, air conditioners was not the norm back then nor did they have carts. In Africa, I played on red earth with the odd blade of grass spaced every foot or so, it was very hot. 

This subject will not go away, its here and until the problem is faced it will keep reoccurring. Carts are here, that I accept but what about the Golfer who just wants to play his traditional game without the eyesore or distraction of carts or paths. Is it not time that clubs and architects recognised that golf is first and foremost a game based upon Walking and provide the amenities to play traditional golf. Want carts, fine, but hide the cart paths, keep them well clear of the Fairways, Greens & Tees. If the development forces a long distance between Green and next Tee then the design of the whole needs to be re-considered as again Golf is not about long distance between Greens & Tees. Yet the attitude seems clear just bang in cart s and paths that will resolve the problem – the easy solution, sod the game of golf is what these people are actually saying and expect us all to accepting it. Come on guys this is not the spirit that founded America or for that matter The USA. Your forefathers thought that certain things were worth fighting for, that’s just as true today as it was back then.  But don’t let apathy win – it has the habit of  screw up everything in the end.

Yes, apathy and not understand the full consequences of the issue has allowed this course of events to occur. It is never too late to correct a wrong. The fight continues and is fundamental to modern golf course architecture IMHO.

As we understand your frustrations, please understand ours.

Melvyn


Here we go again!  ::)

I think the dead horse has just been made into jerky after the beating it has got from our dear Melvyn.
H.P.S.

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