[ChipRoyce]

Had the wonderful opportunity to play at Seminole yesterday and many different topics I could discuss about how great the routing is, required shotmaking, great company to play with,  firm and fast, incredible green conditions and on and on.

There were only a few disappointments to what I expected. The par 5, 15th hole comes to mind.

I learned from a Seminole caddie, the night before over drinks, that esp. on your approaches, you need to work the ball into the wind, otherwise you'll likely lose control of it and end up in a well situated bunker.

When we reached #15, I thought I was going to be faced with a really strategic, neat, risk reward hole. However, as a draw hitter, the trees that are part of the island of bunkers and rough that separates the two fairways seemed an unnecessary obstacle, eliminating the left fairway as an angle of play and limiting the player's options.

I've attached an overhead view of the hole - tee box is in the upper left, green in the lower right. My desired line of play is in Red, Blue is where you seem forced to play to.

I wished that I had the option to play that direction and work my way up the left side of the fairway. The wind was blowing a good 1 1/2 - 2 clubs from the southeast and that seemed to make the right fairway much smaller (push ball into bunkers on left fairway). Also would have allowed a better angle to draw the ball into the green.

Interested to get others' opinions here!

[JESII]

Chip,

are you a leftie?

In the wind you describe, if you're able to hit it as far as your line indicates wouldn't you be going after the green with your second shot?

[ChipRoyce]

Jim - talking about playing the hole and the situation:
1) I'm right handed
2) The hole is only 487. Folks in my group were easily playing their shots into the wind on the blue line. The wind would easily carry my ball into the left fairway (add a few yards, even if I'm not a big hitter)
3) On this day, wind is blowing from the green to the tee
4) I wanted to go in left fairway as my misses have been block / fades. If I picked the blue line in that wind and hit my draw, I'm in the bunkers in the center. If I block it, I risk splashing in the water. Choosing a safer / left line gets my ball in play.

From a GCA perspective... wondering if folks would agree the trees seem to be unnecessary and limit the intent of the hole?

[Michael Dugger]

Sounds to me like your inability to hit a fade led to the limitations you cited, not the architecture.

Should the architecture accomodate the golfer or the golfer accomodate the architecture?

[TEPaul]

ChipRoyce:

I've felt for over forty years that those palm trees along that bunker line are an unnecessary obstacle as you do. They always made me feel like I was faced with a line of telephone poles to weave my ball through from time to time. And I can tell you they are a lot more problematic for women and shorter players and higher handicappers who tend to use that left fairway farther back than most good players do.

[ChipRoyce]

Sounds to me like your inability to hit a fade led to the limitations you cited, not the architecture.

Should the architecture accomodate the golfer or the golfer accomodate the architecture?

Michael;

I'd agree with your point that I wasn't able that day to hit a fade and feel confident to put my ball in play in the right fairway.

The issue I bring up is why does the dual fairway design exist if one can't use that alternate route and deal with the added length / complexity to take that route?

The course has 2 fairways and the club chooses not to let that area go to rough or become sandy waste. One would think the architect intends someone to play to that landing area.

Why make it mostly  inaccessible with the trees?

[JC Jones]

Chip,

I have not had the pleasure of playing Seminole so this opinion is limited to what I can see on the aerial. 

I would agree with you.  It seems that only a pretty severe cut could get around those trees and stay in the fairway.  Anything short of a slice would appear, to me, to go through the fairway. 

I'd rather see the trees removed and let the bunkers serve their purpose.

Jason

[Chris Ord]

This might seem like an odd question -- but does the fact that they are palm trees make any difference?  If they were big, furry oaks, I could see that definitely being a problem.  But skinny little palm trees?  Isn't there a decent chance you won't hit one of those?  Just wondering.

[JC Jones]

This might seem like an odd question -- but does the fact that they are palm trees make any difference?  If they were big, furry oaks, I could see that definitely being a problem.  But skinny little palm trees?  Isn't there a decent chance you won't hit one of those?  Just wondering.

It has been my experience that whatever I aim at I do not hit.  So, maybe you are right, just aim at them and there is a good chance you wont hit them.

[ChipRoyce]

This might seem like an odd question -- but does the fact that they are palm trees make any difference?  If they were big, furry oaks, I could see that definitely being a problem.  But skinny little palm trees?  Isn't there a decent chance you won't hit one of those?  Just wondering.

It has been my experience that whatever I aim at I do not hit.  So, maybe you are right, just aim at them and there is a good chance you wont hit them.

JC / Chris - point well made and how I approached the shot.

I'm at Seminole, at the 15th hole with an alternate fairway and gosh darn, I'm going after that fairway regarless of the trees.

Well, I never got comfortable with my drive and hit a really weak pull with my driver just left of the first bunker in that line of bunkers, leaving me a shot to thread through the trees, in some of the thicker rough on the course.

Long story short, had to hack out of that lie, hit fairway wood across the water into the teeth of the wind to about 60 yards, wedge and putt for a 6.

If /when I ever have the luxury to return to Seminole and those trees are still there, I would probably play the other route. However, this time, I will interrogate the caddie to get all the different yardages (to the bunkers, carry the water and to hitreach water on the right / end of the fairway). That finger of fairway looks narrow from the tee - the wind adds even more pucker factor.

[TEPaul]

"I'd suck it up and do whatever it takes to hit that finger of land that seems pretty narrow off the tee."


The right or first fairway is definitely not that narrow. Unless you are long just aim about in the middle of it and hit a good drive if you're playing from the tips. With that you should have a clear shot over the second pond and right at the green with those trees well enough to your left and out of the way. In my day even if you hit it good and well out there but on the right of that first fairway you actually had to sort of deal with those big Australian pines on your right

[Carl Nichols]

How far is it to fly the last bunker?  What's the prevailing wind?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Had the wonderful opportunity to play at Seminole yesterday and many different topics I could discuss about how great the routing is, required shotmaking, great company to play with,  firm and fast, incredible green conditions and on and on.

There were only a few disappointments to what I expected. The par 5, 15th hole comes to mind.
Then you didn't understand what was presented to you.

I learned from a Seminole caddie, the night before over drinks, that esp. on your approaches, you need to work the ball into the wind, otherwise you'll likely lose control of it and end up in a well situated bunker.

You needed a caddy to tell you this ?

When we reached #15, I thought I was going to be faced with a really strategic, neat, risk reward hole. However, as a draw hitter, the trees that are part of the island of bunkers and rough that separates the two fairways seemed an unnecessary obstacle, eliminating the left fairway as an angle of play and limiting the player's options.

Not at all.

If you hit a draw, into the wind, you can get home in two with a strategically placed drive down the right fairway which is wide enough to land a plane.

I've attached an overhead view of the hole - tee box is in the upper left, green in the lower right. My desired line of play is in Red, Blue is where you seem forced to play to.

Then you made a mistake in how to play the hole.
As a golfer who draws the ball you should have taken the blue line, the red line is a total bail out, chicken route that leaves you no chance to get to the green in two.

Why should you be rewarded for taking a less threatening line ?

Why should you have an easier shot for playing safe ?

I wished that I had the option to play that direction and work my way up the left side of the fairway.

Why should you be rewarded for chickening out on your drive ?
Why should you be rewarded for NOT challenging the water and centerline bunker complex ?

The wind was blowing a good 1 1/2 - 2 clubs from the southeast and that seemed to make the right fairway much smaller (push ball into bunkers on left fairway).

That's a normal wind.

And, that's one of the geniuses of the design.
Ross faked you out.
He bluffed you into thinking you couldn't handle the right side and forced you up the left side, the chicken side.
There's tons of room on the right side, but, Ross fooled you, he challenged your confidence and you blinked and you bailed out to the left.
So now that Ross accomplished his goal, his mission, you want a free pass.
You want to whine that the trees aren't fair ?

Hell, they're dinky tiny trunked palm trees and there aren't many of them there.
Why should you be rewarded for failing to challenge the right side, a side that would put you in position to get home in two.

Also would have allowed a better angle to draw the ball into the green.

That's not true

Interested to get others' opinions here!

My opinion is in conflict with yours.

You shouldn't be rewarded for taking the easy path/DZ

Michael Dugger,

A fade into that wind can be a risky shot, especially if it gets away from you a little, or unless you aim left of the bunker complex and fade it, but, in Florida, that Ocean wind eats fades alive.

[Jay Kirkpatrick]

Just walked in the door from playing there today.  First of all there is a lot of room in the right fairway.  I can't ever imagine a time when you'd go left other than a major hurting left to right wind.  I don't necessarily think those trees come into play that much, and they obviously penalized a poor tee shot in your case.

Also, I just want to reiterate what has been said here a million times... D. Ross did an unbelievable job routing that golf course.  He got the maximum out of the property he possibly could with no weak holes to be found.  A truly outstanding place...

[JC Jones]

Just walked in the door from playing there today.  First of all there is a lot of room in the right fairway.  I can't ever imagine a time when you'd go left other than a major hurting left to right wind.  I don't necessarily think those trees come into play that much, and they obviously penalized a poor tee shot in your case.

Also, I just want to reiterate what has been said here a million times... D. Ross did an unbelievable job routing that golf course.  He got the maximum out of the property he possibly could with no weak holes to be found.  A truly outstanding place...

Would you go left, as Tom Paul mentioned earlier, if you were a woman, older or a shorter hitter?  It seems from the aerial that the carry of the water could be intimidating if you are a natural slicer. 

[ChipRoyce]

Tom;
There's no doubt that I was playing to bail left on this day.
Was I looking to be rewarded? No, I understood that going that route takes the birdie opportunity away that is afforded by the right fairway. I wanted to make sure that my ball was dry in this instance.
But using trees to block that route?

[Tom Yost]

Pat Mucci:

Did Ross put those palm trees there as part of the strategy of the design?  It seems so many times things like this are later additions, in this case, I wonder...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Just walked in the door from playing there today.  First of all there is a lot of room in the right fairway.  I can't ever imagine a time when you'd go left other than a major hurting left to right wind.  I don't necessarily think those trees come into play that much, and they obviously penalized a poor tee shot in your case.

Also, I just want to reiterate what has been said here a million times... D. Ross did an unbelievable job routing that golf course.  He got the maximum out of the property he possibly could with no weak holes to be found.  A truly outstanding place...

Would you go left, as Tom Paul mentioned earlier, if you were a woman, older or a shorter hitter? 

TEPaul is ALL of those things, so he's amply qualified to answer that question.

However, the answer is, the shortest distance between two points is a straight line, in the opposite direction.

The real answer to your question is, NOT if you intend on making par.


It seems from the aerial that the carry of the water could be intimidating if you are a natural slicer. 

If you're a natural slicer, the WINDS at Seminole will eat you alive.

The carry ISN'T intimidating, don't be fooled by the aerial.
The hole, a par 5 is well under 500 yards from the front and ladies tees.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat Mucci:

Did Ross put those palm trees there as part of the strategy of the design?  It seems so many times things like this are later additions, in this case, I wonder...

Tom,

In reality, the trees are a NON-FACTOR in the play of the hole due to the enormous generosity of the fairway.

What is a major factor are those centerline bunkers and the mounded foot pad.

You can get a very dicey lie in them, causing a recovery to find a watery grave.

One of the flaws in Chips schematic is that his red line is longer than his blue line.
To analyze the hole properly, both lines should be equal.

In addition, please look at the location of the forward and ladies tees and look at the width of that fairway, it's probably 100+ yards, left to right.
From the back tee the hole plays about 497+ yards, obviously wind direction impacts play.
It's a hole that on the scorecard says birdie, but, if you're not careful a big number is possible.

The caliper of those trees is about 12 inches, and there's only five or six of them, spaced out rather well.
How anyone could deem them a substantive obstacle is beyond me, unless you landed at the base and had your swing inhibited.

At one time I believe that there were trees on the left, but that they were taken out to give the golfer more options off the tee.

Arnold Palmer once claimed that this was one of his top eighteen favorite holes

[Jay Kirkpatrick]

The only reason you would go left (aside from a north to south hurting wind) is if you can't get it airborne.  if you've got that problem, then seminole isn't your place to begin with.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jay,

Agreed.

And, the carry from each of the tees only becomes dicey if you choose to go far right.

# 15 is probably one of the first golf holes in America to have a dual fairway.

It would be interesting to see how many of the "Golden Age" courses had them.

# 18 at Yale comes to mind.
To a degree you could throw in # 8 at NGLA and maybe even # 1 at GCGC.

What other courses had holes with dual fairways and what architect employed them more than... rarely ?

[Tom_Doak]

If the left-hand fairway on #15 is as pointless as the hole's apologists are saying, then why the heck is it there at all?

Like Tom P., I never got the point of the trees down the middle, unless their intent was to turn the hole into a par-6 for women.

P.S. to Patrick:  There were not many dual fairway holes, as you suggest, but you forgot the most famous of the day:  the 4th at Lido.

[Patrick_Mucci]

If the left-hand fairway on #15 is as pointless as the hole's apologists are saying, then why the heck is it there at all?

Tom, I think the answer is fairly simple, the WIND.

With a wind at your back you can easily hit your drive into the water on the right side.
With a strong wind, you can carry those bunkers and leave yourself a reasonable shot into the green without having to worry about the water.
With a good wind from the North (left) hitting to the right also becomes dicey.
A drive to the second fairway leaves you a downwind shot that can reach the green.

While I haven't spoken to Ross lately, it would seem that a good deal of the design of the golf course strongly factors in the wind, its direction and its velocity.

With no wind or a prevailing wind # 10 is a fairly benign hole.
Into a good north wind, it's a bear, even though it's relatively short.

There are a good number of holes like that at Seminole and I think Ross's genius is that the golf course retains its overall ballance irrespective of the direction and velocity of the wind.


Like Tom P., I never got the point of the trees down the middle, unless their intent was to turn the hole into a par-6 for women.

In the times I've played Seminole, I've never seen them act as a factor.

Perhaps others who have played Seminole could confirm or dispute that statement.

P.S. to Patrick:  There were not many dual fairway holes, as you suggest, but you forgot the most famous of the day:  the 4th at Lido.

Yes, I did overlook Lido.

Why do you think there aren't many dual fairway holes ?
Land constraint ?  Cost ? Lack of appeal ?  Difficulty in designing them ?  Unpopular ?

[Tom_Doak]

I think there are not many dual fairway holes because the old Scots architects thought of them as excess, and because it is very hard to come up with one where the two routes are balanced enough that a player might choose either one, depending on the conditions of the day.  95% of them are set up so that if you can make the longer carry, that's always the best play, while the shorter hitter is forced to compound his disadvantage.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

"compound the disadvantage"

That's an interesting phrase.

Where else do you see "compounding the disadvantage" ?

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