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Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Small time architect
« on: May 10, 2009, 07:09:56 PM »
To the Collective,

After reading the thread regarding Mr. Doak's quote on greenkeeping, I wanted to bring the group back to architecture. 

Is there room for an architect in this economy and in the future that builds ONE course at a time? My hypothetical example would be a head architect, construction manager, two or three shapers and bunker guys; that travel as a crew building one single golf course before starting on another.  Possibly a practice of setting a time frame in the contract that stipulates personalized attention and knowledge for the client on a level not currently used? 

I can't see this hypothetical company employing more than 5-7 people.  I also see this hypothetical architect only putting out 2-3 courses in a 5-7 year time span and not engaging in renovation or redesign work but only original layouts.  It would be boutique architecture to the max!  To the other archies out there; is this a viable business plan?  Could it push the limits of great architecture while  remaining financially viable?

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Small time architect
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2009, 07:29:13 PM »
Ben

Seems a lot of guys do use this model already.  Renaissance has grown a little beyond 5-7 guys but I'd venture to guess Mike Devries is not much bigger than that #.

Same with Gil Hanse....

C & C isn't all that big either.

All of these firms do their owns builds for the most part....


What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Joshua Pettit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Small time architect
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2009, 07:50:36 PM »
Ben,

I actually wrote a business plan for a professional practice class last semester that is essentially the same as what you describe.  I'll let you know in 5-7 years if it is viable. 
"The greatest and fairest of things are done by nature, and the lesser by art."

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Small time architect
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2009, 08:30:32 PM »
Ben,
Unfortunately at this time (with the economic conditions), I fear your model is more common than we'd all hope.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Small time architect
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2009, 09:25:03 PM »
I have been doing it this way for a long time with some overlap....but that is not a problem in these conditions.... ;)
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Small time architect
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2009, 09:33:51 PM »
I see no one who's posted yet has ever run a business before!

Gentlemen, do the math on your example.  What do you pay these 5-7 guys?  Add in 20-25% for overhead, multiply it out and then double it to take two years per project, and you are going to have to charge an awful lot of money per design ... more than you can realistically charge before you're already at the top of the business ... and you do not get to the top of the business building one course every other year.

To keep my six associates going, we've had to build one or two courses per year, and we have to aim for three because sometimes they fall through at the last minute.  Anything less than that and you just cannot afford to keep a large payroll ... of course, it's possible you could keep all those guys in waiting right now without keeping them on payroll, because they've probably got nothing else to do.

Mike Stranz was probably the closest guy to following the model you describe.  It worked for him (for a while) because he was moving from one project to the next with the same 2-3 clients and he could time things out because he was in demand.  Demand is not that strong right now.  It is hard to be small unless you are a one-man or two-man operation.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Small time architect
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2009, 09:37:30 PM »
I have been doing it this way for a long time with some overlap
Mike,
That must be very satisfying.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Small time architect
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2009, 09:38:01 PM »
Tom,
I think he means having 5-7 guys that are the talent in the construction crew....would you not agree that if one can incorporate their cost ib the construction cost then it works.....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Small time architect
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2009, 09:40:44 PM »
Mike:

5-7 guys moving from one job to the next?  What do you pay them?

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Small time architect
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2009, 09:49:09 PM »
Tom,
I don't.  I have them all work for the owner.  Two are shapers and the rest do all the skilled hand labor, finishing etc....we contract irrigation labor and have the owner purchase the irrigation materials....all comes out of construction budget.....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Small time architect
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2009, 10:33:07 PM »
Tom,

Without delving too much into your personal business model...how many permanent employees does Renaissance have? I ask this because your workload for the most part is public knowledge and I'd be interested to know how many employees are supported by that workload. I guess the crux of my entire line of questioning centers around one thing.  At what point is it still good for the design and financially viable for an archie to stop traveling, and focus deeply on one course at a time while also being the "talent" on the machinery?

Maybe I should narrow the focus. ;D  Can this business realistically support an operation as small as even 1-3 dudes?  Like maybe an archie and two shapers?

Mike,

I am being ambiguous on purpose I know...but can you explain you latest post more deeply?  I promise I am not trying to "steal" a business model.  The Air Force owns me for long time before I can even consider trying to involve myself in golf design. 



Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Small time architect
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2009, 11:11:48 PM »
Ben,

You'll need a 20 year business plan.
Why do you need so many guys? You can't have them for a long time.
There are going to be a lot of associates out there in a few years - all with 20+ years experience.
Those old timers won't be here for ever and they sure created a lot of mediocre associates - by making them do it their ways.

Mike Y. was in the golf business a long time before he built his design firm.
Tom has been at it for 25 years - several of which were for Pete.
C&C took many years after their first project to stay afloat - barely - and one of them won the Masters - twice.

I spent an awful lot of time on site at my last project, but it isn't like I haven't been looking for another one since then - check the date on my last interview - 4 years ago.

It will take you at least 10 years to get close to having a work load.
If you went the associate route it will take 10 years to go out on your own and more to create a workload.

Ian Andrew has been at it for 20 years and he is now working with Mike Weir - a few years out on his own.
Although he has some fabulous clients.

Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Small time architect
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2009, 11:29:39 PM »
Mike N,

Whoa!  I wasn't talking about a greenhorn going it alone right out of the chute.  What I meant was: Is the business moving in a direction of "boutique design" based on lack of work?  This thread was intended for a young guy like me to get the skinny on what is going on in the heads of dudes that not only design courses, but are businessmen on top of that.  Like I asked Mr. Young in a message I left him, could the "George Crump" style of design work today?  Is there room for a guy that goes it alone with a few select employees--or even select contractors as one poster notified me--in today's market? 

Also, maybe its lost on me but; how hard is it for young talent to get work once they strike out on their own.  For every late 90's version of Renaissance or Hanse, there must be 20 that didn't pan out as viable businesses right?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Small time architect
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2009, 11:33:58 PM »
Ben:

I am not about to break down all of my employees' payroll and details on a public forum.  I would share general details with you in private if you want.  The highest # of full-time employees I've ever had was eight, and that was too many for the amount of work we are doing right now.  I can also say we're stretched pretty thin right now supporting six employees, plus three or four other guys who have been working for us doing shaping work as independent contractors, and a couple of interns ... not to mention 7 spouses and 14 kids!

But, let's do some simple math.  Say your two shapers/associates are making $100K per year plus benefits ... (that's a reasonable number if they're young and single, but not when they are 35 and starting a family) ... so that's $250,000 for the two of them.  And you want to pay them to do one job every other year, so that's $500,000 per job.  But the entire shaping budget is only going to be $350,000 to $500,000, and two guys aren't going to do 100% of that work.  So you are going to have to subsidize their pay out of your design fee, whatever you are charging; and if you are only designing one course every other year, that means your design fee had better be north of $500,000, assuming you think you should make more than your shapers do.

I don't know how many architects charge a $500,000 design fee, except I know that prices are deflating as we speak.  

Also, understand that unless an architect has a very understanding spouse who wants to move around the world with him (which is the most underrated part of Alice Dye's life and career), it is impossible for an architect to "stop traveling".  Even in your dream scenario of 1 project per year, while you're working on that one project you are going to have to make 3-4 trips to get the routing done for next year's project, and also 3-4 trips (if not more than that) to meet the clients and look at sites for the year after next ... unless you are also paying a business manager, who would add another large chunk of payroll to the equation.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Small time architect
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2009, 11:35:16 PM »
P.S.  Yes, boutique firms are "in", because bigger firms are not sustainable anymore.  But be careful what you wish for ... George Crump had to pay himself, and of course he didn't live to see his one job finished!

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Small time architect
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2009, 11:58:27 PM »
I hear you Ben.

Then to answer your question.
I sure hope it works.
But not with that much labor - 2 shapers + 1 archie shaper.

If I really want to build some great projects I'd need to design more than one at a time.
Am i really going to turn down a great site 6 months after I agree to build one on an average site?
I would never build up enough of a resume to be considered for a great site.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Small time architect
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2009, 12:14:06 AM »
Mike N and Tom D,

This is all extremely hypothetical.  I understand how ambiguous this is to guys of your experience and knowledge.  It's like me watching young pilots get snatched up to fly unmanned drones in a way.  I just wanted an unbiased and realistic look from folks in the know about the evolution of the business.  Trust me, it all made sense when I was dreaming last night of living in a tent and making my family's farm into the next Pine Valley with my granddad's 1968 John Deere 1020 and box scraper.   

No Mike, you're not going to turn down work.  You have to have experience to get more experience as the saying goes.  I get that part of it.  It sounds like I need to reread "The Peter Principle".  How many of the roaming construction/shaper or bunker contractors are normally used by a small firm?  Are those types of "hired guns" the answer to keeping it small?

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Small time architect
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2009, 12:15:53 AM »
p.s.  I'd love if Mr. DeVries would dive into this conversation ;D

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Small time architect
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2009, 08:13:37 AM »
Funny enough, I wouldn't call the guys who are doing the 5-7 associates model small time architects...

Unless, you're willing to call Renaissance Golf Design, C & C and Gil Hanse small time architects...


As romantic as the one course per year and shapers on site sounds like, you need to get a job.

By that I mean you have to establish some kind of reputation for an owner to jump in, put money forward and without detailed documents, let the architect go out and built a golf course for 5-6 millions $. Some owners might be willing to do so, but often their bankers aren't.

The way to do it is quality... be better than anybody and that's why Tom Doak and Gil Hanse succeed...

Basically, it's like a risk-reward scenario (not to quote anybody) for the owner:
Option A: Get the architect with a normal plans and details approach from a big firm = safe and decent quality
Option B: Get the on-site deal = risky but superior quality

Establishing your reputation makes the owner focus less on the risk, more on the superior quality...

So being a small time deal would be hard to work in that kind of scenario.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Small time architect
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2009, 08:42:10 AM »
Phillip,
I don't know any "big time" architects right now.....I would say every body is small time.    I think one thing this site misses is the fact that each state or region has some guys doing more work than is ever mentioned here and this site has never heard of them and they just keep working.....they don't get caught up in whether they are an architect or a shaper....the supts know them and call them and they get paid....

I think Jeff made a good point earlier regarding every 30 years a development move etc.....but I think the last one was the first where "signature" architecture was used to sell the development.....(with exceptions such as Pasatiempo)  .....the next time you will see signature horse barns from some Kentucky Derby jockey and signature hiking trails from the Gibbons guy that used to eat pine cones.....the next generation of residential developers will expect the golf operation to sustain itself and not rely on lot sales and that is a very difficult task with the clubhouses built in some of these developments....and the maintenance requirements.....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Small time architect
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2009, 11:33:23 PM »
I think one thing this site misses is the fact that each state or region has some guys doing more work than is ever mentioned here and this site has never heard of them and they just keep working.....they don't get caught up in whether they are an architect or a shaper....the supts know them and call them and they get paid....

Getting paid does not equate to doing superior work.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Small time architect
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2009, 06:58:47 AM »
I think one thing this site misses is the fact that each state or region has some guys doing more work than is ever mentioned here and this site has never heard of them and they just keep working.....they don't get caught up in whether they are an architect or a shaper....the supts know them and call them and they get paid....

Getting paid does not equate to doing superior work.

Now Michael.....you are getting into the idealstic nature of this website ;) ;) ;)
How many of the 16,000 courses in this country need superior work?  what is superior work?  They need good work......13000 of them need not much more than a good putting surface......I'm am not talking of inferior work....I am saying Honda work not BMW work....we have almost busted golf with all this superior work ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Small time architect
« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2009, 07:57:04 AM »
Mike,

I have made that point for years!  You and I have done more for golf designing affordable public courses of some quality that won't make the top 100 than the top guys have done by creating our greatest courses, no?

But, isn't Honda now a higher rated vehicle for reliability than BMW?  What does that tell us?

I always laughed at the "I do a few courses at a time to preserve quality" tag lines.  We all do just a few courses at a time (except for TF and JN in the heyday) because that's all there ever was to do after we all got done competing for jobs.

"Small time architect" and "boutique shop" are the new minimalism - For both, some did it by choice, others by necessity.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Small time architect
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2009, 08:20:44 AM »
Mike,
I think 15,000 of them need superior work.
Superior work does not equate to more expensive for the player.
Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Small time architect
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2009, 09:06:23 AM »
Mike,
I think 15,000 of them need superior work.
Superior work does not equate to more expensive for the player.
Cheers

Hmmm..interesting take.....
I must be careful discussing such or it can come across as thought I am condoning inferior work....and I am not...I am going to assume that our biggest disagreement here is how we define the word superior.....
Do you think we need more luxury car dealers than toyota and honda dealers?  Do we need more custom 1.5 million dollar houses than we need $300,000 well built homes?  Do we need more Lugars and Del Friscos than we do Ryans Steakhouses?  I say no to all of the above.....
How much of a green fee or a dues structure should be allocated to maintenance of a golf course?  How many courses of superior construction have "built in" maintenance issues that must be adhered to?  How many of the 16000 courses out there can really afford to rebuild greens every 15-20 years or replace an irrigation system every 15-20 years or cart paths?  Or buy  lightweight fairway units every 5 years when a ground driven transport frame could last 20? 
Not trying to be a jerk here.....just asking legitimate questions....the model is broken......and my THEORY for golf to work at the average course  is simple......maintenance allocation of green fee can be no more than 35%.....and that is impossible for much of the "superior" work we have out there right now..... ;)

"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

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