[Richard Hetzel]

Play The FORT before you play Purgatory. The Fort is a more interesting course than Purgatory and the prices are similar.

The Tropy Club is also pretty good.

Here are pics of Tropy Club:


http://www.hetzelfamily.org/golf/TrophyClub/

Pics of the Fort:

http://www.hetzelfamily.org/golf/Fort/

Indy has some great courses, most of which I prefer playing over anything in Cincinnati.

[Richard Hetzel]

Bearslide GC just north of Indianapolis is pretty darn nice as well:

http://www.hetzelfamily.org/golf/bearslide/

[Chris_Clouser]

A lot of great recommendations here.  The only thing I would add is if you are going to be in Lafayette, then skip Kampen and visit Coyote Crossing.  It's a much more enjoyable track to play.  Otherwise, pretty much everything of note has been mentioned here.

[PCCraig]

A lot of great recommendations here.  The only thing I would add is if you are going to be in Lafayette, then skip Kampen and visit Coyote Crossing.  It's a much more enjoyable track to play.  Otherwise, pretty much everything of note has been mentioned here.

Chris-

I'm curious as to why you recommend CC over Kampen? I played both on the same day last summer and enjoyed Kampen much more, but perhaps after playing a Dye course Coyote Crossing seemed super subtle.

[Chris_Clouser]

I'm just of the opinion that when I was there that the Kampen course was maintained too much like a US Open style course, which it is not.  The rough was way too deep and the fairways too tight.  The ground also was soaked so much that water came up when we walked on the fairways.  From talking with the staff that was the way they maintained it at the time, so it wasn't an issue with too much rain.  From what I understand it was all in preparation for the 2008 NCAAs.  Also the waste bunkers were maintained so that balls would get lost in them, not purposefully but that was the result in more than one instance in our group as well.  The day I played, my group lost six balls or something by the fourth hole I believe and it wasn't like we were spraying it all over the place, many of them were balls that rolled into the rough after hitting in the fairway.  If they have changed that then it probably deserves a second look.  If not, then I'll stand on my opinion. 

I thought many of the holes were also repetitive and the routing was very blah with many holes running parallel to each other.  Also, two of the par threes were basically identical.  And was there a hole where the cart path was not prominently placed in the middle of the fairway? I think I saw that on half of the par fours and fives. 

From a design perspective there are some elements I liked about Kampen.  I think some of the holes like the 4th, 12th, 15th and 16th were nicely done and had some merits.  The 8th and 18th were my favorite holes.  But many of the holes I thought were either just silly, boring or prototypical Dye stuff that you see on every single one of his courses.  Also and I don't try to get too hung up on it, but there were parts of the course that were just ugly.

Coyote is different.  I thought it used the land much better and did not have the heavily manufactured look.  Holes like 10, 3, 4 and 12 are really good examples.  I thought the green complexes were much more varied in their style in comparison to the Dye greens at Purdue.  I also thought that Coyote didn't beat you over the head with its difficulty.  Coyote has its blemishes as well, to be sure.  It is probably a little short to be a supreme test, but for a player at my level it was more than challenging.  It allowed you to make shots instead of dictating what shots you had to hit as well.  I just had a lot more fun playing there than I did at Kampen.

[PCCraig]

I'm just of the opinion that when I was there that the Kampen course was maintained too much like a US Open style course, which it is not.  The rough was way too deep and the fairways too tight.  The ground also was soaked so much that water came up when we walked on the fairways.  From talking with the staff that was the way they maintained it at the time, so it wasn't an issue with too much rain.  From what I understand it was all in preparation for the 2008 NCAAs.  Also the waste bunkers were maintained so that balls would get lost in them, not purposefully but that was the result in more than one instance in our group as well.  The day I played, my group lost six balls or something by the fourth hole I believe and it wasn't like we were spraying it all over the place, many of them were balls that rolled into the rough after hitting in the fairway.  If they have changed that then it probably deserves a second look.  If not, then I'll stand on my opinion. 

I thought many of the holes were also repetitive and the routing was very blah with many holes running parallel to each other.  Also, two of the par threes were basically identical.  And was there a hole where the cart path was not prominently placed in the middle of the fairway? I think I saw that on half of the par fours and fives. 

From a design perspective there are some elements I liked about Kampen.  I think some of the holes like the 4th, 12th, 15th and 16th were nicely done and had some merits.  The 8th and 18th were my favorite holes.  But many of the holes I thought were either just silly, boring or prototypical Dye stuff that you see on every single one of his courses.  Also and I don't try to get too hung up on it, but there were parts of the course that were just ugly.

Coyote is different.  I thought it used the land much better and did not have the heavily manufactured look.  Holes like 10, 3, 4 and 12 are really good examples.  I thought the green complexes were much more varied in their style in comparison to the Dye greens at Purdue.  I also thought that Coyote didn't beat you over the head with its difficulty.  Coyote has its blemishes as well, to be sure.  It is probably a little short to be a supreme test, but for a player at my level it was more than challenging.  It allowed you to make shots instead of dictating what shots you had to hit as well.  I just had a lot more fun playing there than I did at Kampen.

Fair enough Chris 

I was just curious as to hear your reasoning as the resident expert on Indiana public golf.

[John Nixon]

I thought many of the holes were also repetitive and the routing was very blah with many holes running parallel to each other.  Also, two of the par threes were basically identical.  And was there a hole where the cart path was not prominently placed in the middle of the fairway? I think I saw that on half of the par fours and fives. 

Remember Chris, this course is for the Purdue crowd. It's not like they'll know any better.     





As for the question at hand, if you truly are going to make it back here over the next several years, then I think you've got plenty of good recommendations in Purgatory, The Fort, Trophy Club and Bear Slide in central Indiana for starters. And I'll second Scott's thoughts on the Brickyard during 500 practice times. 

[C. Squier]

I won't be around next week, but let me know next year and we'll tee it up at Wolf Run.  I think you'd enjoy it.  The other options already stated are all good....a fair amount of fun public golf near Indy. 

[Chris_Clouser]

Good point John.   

[Richard Hetzel]

I think I am playing the BRickyard next Thursday, it should be neat with car sounds....

[David Whitmer]

My buddy is a former golf pro from Evansville, and when I asked him via email about this topic, here is what he shot back:

Under normal circumstances I would recommend Sultan’s Run over French Lick.  I played both courses many times and was an Assistant Golf Professional at Sultan’s Run in the late 90’s after Tim Liddy did the renovation to the original design.   I think Sultan’s Run is an absolute gem with some beautiful natural scenery, but since the zoysia grass is still coming out of its dormant stage I will give the nod to French Lick.   This will be the case with most courses in southern Indiana this time of year.   If memory serves me right, French Lick does not have Bermuda and zoysia grass fairways and tees and will be in peak condition.   I’ve played Quail Crossing a few times and I think it has Bermuda fairways and tees.

 

My recommendation would be to focus more on the Indianapolis area in the middle of the week for multiple rounds, saving Otter Creek for your last round so you can take an easy drive down I-65 to Louisville.  Try and play all 27 holes there!   If you have a good relationship with your local PGA professional maybe he can call and see if playing Wolf Run in Zionsville is a possibility.  I don’t think you can pass up playing the Brickyard Crossing especially if there is a chance cars will be on the track.   I would say if you were able to squeeze the Brickyard and Prairie View you would have fond memories of Indiana’s capitol city.   Personally, I’m not a big fan of Purgatory.   I think it tries too hard to be….well…..too hard!   I passed my PGA playing ability test at Harrison Hills so I have good memories of the place, but not good enough to drive the hour west when there is Bear Slide and Rock Hollow also an hour away.  If you have some time before your flight out of Louisville, do yourself a favor and take a tour of the Louisville Slugger bat factory.   It will make you want to grab a dog and a cold beer at the airport!

 

I hope you enjoy your trip to Indiana so much that it brings you back in summer and fall to enjoy the southern half of the state.

[Brad Tufts]

Thanks again for all the great suggestions.

I will be spending Tues. night in Ft. Wayne (meeting there on Wed. AM) before driving back to Indy.  I will not be in Ft. Wayne longer than sleeping and one meeting.  I end that day west of town, so those courses will be in play at that point.

I do have to be in Evansville Thurs. night/Fri. morning too, so that is why FL breaks up the drive to Louisville.

I think ultimately the choice will be two courses around Indy, and whatever I don't get to see this year, I will see next year, and the year after that...etc.

Thanks David especially for e-mailing your friend!

[Chris_Clouser]

Brad,

If you are west of Ft. Wayne which way will you head down to Indy?  If down I-69 then your best bet will be the Fort or perhaps Purgatory or Prairie View on the NE corner of Indy.  If you are going to drive across the state to US 31 then I would say go over to Rock Hollow and then head down to Indy and you can hit any of the courses around town or in the northern suburbs.

Shoot me an e-mail or pm and let me know when you will be in town and we can try to hook up for a drink or something.

Chris

[Brian Laurent]

I'll toss in another vote for The Fort.  It's one of my favorites in the Indy area.  On your way from South Bend to Ft. Wayne...stop by Maxwelton in Syracuse.  It's an old Langford with some great character. 

Enjoy your trip!

[Steve Burrows]

If I may, I would like to make a couple of less obvious suggestions.  These are not the glamorous courses that have been mentioned previously, but are suggested instead as a means by which to understand the evolution of a particular designer.  Pete Dye made his start in Indianapolis, and a few of those early courses might be used as comparison/contrast to the more high-profile work that he had later in his career.  Again, these are hardly the best courses in the area, but if you're a history buff, then perhaps they are worth a look.  As such, I will suggest Maple Creek Country Club (semi-private and allows daily-fee play) and Sahm Golf Course. 

Maple Creek was Dye’s first 18-hole design (1962), and though some of the playing corridors are increasingly narrow on account of trees, the green complexes provide some tricky, even awkward, edges and fall offs that seem to show an immature version of what he would develop more highly at TPC Sawgrass, etc.  Likewise, Sahm was designed in the early 60’s, and though one might not know it was a Pete Dye course until they were told so, after knowing this information, one can further see his mind developing the skills(s) that he was able to perfect just a few short years later at Crooked Stick nearby, or at The Golf Club, in Ohio, and at any number of courses that followed.  They also have an early routing plan on the wall in the clubhouse that is quite interesting in contrast to what was actually constructed.

I will also suggest Eagle Creek, on the west side of Indy.  Dye’s original 18 holes have been broken up into parts that combine with newer holes from an expansion project about 10 years ago, but the property is heavily contoured (much like the Fort), and the Dye holes really stand out.

[JLahrman]

My buddy is a former golf pro from Evansville, and when I asked him via email about this topic, here is what he shot back:

Personally, I’m not a big fan of Purgatory.   I think it tries too hard to be….well…..too hard!

I just didn't find this to be true.  There is trouble at Purgatory, and obviously it can become a long course if you play the back tees, but I found it to be much more playable than I expected.  (David I know this is your friend's opinion, not yours).  I was impressed with the place.  I expected a very gimmicky course but I found a solid layout.

[Doug Ralston]

I gotta say, if you are in Indiana and your see the name 'Liddy' associated with a golf course, you should get your clubs.

Rock Hollow, Trophy Club, and Sultan's Run are three of my Top 5 Indiana. I have not played several, but if it says Liddy I cannot resist.

I have played Prugatory and Prairie View too, I would go with Purgatory.

I must [reluctantly?  ] agree with Chris about Kampen vs Coyote Crossing. Coyote was pure golf, and done amazingly well on that land. One other thing which may not play well on this site; CC was the most well defined [condition-wise] course I have played [who have played only one private ever]. There were three clear levels of rough. The greens ran immaculate. I have only played it once, but if it is always that good, it is my pick for most underrated course in Indiana.

Enjoy Indiana golf. A state with a LOT of worthwhile publics!

Doug

[Brent Carlson]

David,

According to the workers at French Lick, the DR course does have Bermuda fairways.  They mentioned that the fairways can be really rough after a cold winter.

My buddy is a former golf pro from Evansville, and when I asked him via email about this topic, here is what he shot back:

Under normal circumstances I would recommend Sultan’s Run over French Lick.  I played both courses many times and was an Assistant Golf Professional at Sultan’s Run in the late 90’s after Tim Liddy did the renovation to the original design.   I think Sultan’s Run is an absolute gem with some beautiful natural scenery, but since the zoysia grass is still coming out of its dormant stage I will give the nod to French Lick.   This will be the case with most courses in southern Indiana this time of year.   If memory serves me right, French Lick does not have Bermuda and zoysia grass fairways and tees and will be in peak condition.   I’ve played Quail Crossing a few times and I think it has Bermuda fairways and tees.

 

My recommendation would be to focus more on the Indianapolis area in the middle of the week for multiple rounds, saving Otter Creek for your last round so you can take an easy drive down I-65 to Louisville.  Try and play all 27 holes there!   If you have a good relationship with your local PGA professional maybe he can call and see if playing Wolf Run in Zionsville is a possibility.  I don’t think you can pass up playing the Brickyard Crossing especially if there is a chance cars will be on the track.   I would say if you were able to squeeze the Brickyard and Prairie View you would have fond memories of Indiana’s capitol city.   Personally, I’m not a big fan of Purgatory.   I think it tries too hard to be….well…..too hard!   I passed my PGA playing ability test at Harrison Hills so I have good memories of the place, but not good enough to drive the hour west when there is Bear Slide and Rock Hollow also an hour away.  If you have some time before your flight out of Louisville, do yourself a favor and take a tour of the Louisville Slugger bat factory.   It will make you want to grab a dog and a cold beer at the airport!

 

I hope you enjoy your trip to Indiana so much that it brings you back in summer and fall to enjoy the southern half of the state.

[Chris_Clouser]

Doug,

Have you ever played Liddy's course called Rolling Meadows in Gosport, just west of Bloomington?  Curious what your thoughts on it if you have.

[PCCraig]

Brad-

Any report on how the trip went?

[Brad Tufts]

Hey guys...."brief" trip review below...

Indiana has some great golf.  I liked each course I tried, and can't wait to try a couple others next year.  I love that it stays light out until almost 9pm...which allowed me to experience a new phenomenon twice, the "afternoon 36."

Monday, Ravisloe CC:  What a peaceful place.  The course does a great job of keeping the player honest on the placement of tee shots especially.  On the flat site, the player may be lulled into thinking he can whale away with no thought as to where to place the tee shots, but the fairway bunkering is very much in play on almost every hole either to carry, to skirt, or to cause a bogey.  I was there on a Monday, so I likely have no frame of reference, but it seems almost like the public hasn't discovered it yet.  The course also had some great greens that you'd have a tough time finding on most public layouts.  Highlights:  #3 green, short par 4 #5, par 3 #6, par 3 11th, par 5 13th, great green complex at #16.  Shot a sloppy 75.

Tuesday, Warren Course:  My first time at UND, they are gearing up for Obama speaking at graduation.  I was hitting the ball all over the map, so that didn't help my understanding of the place, but I enjoyed the course.  The flatter holes on the University side of the property were not nearly as interesting as the several holes with elevation change on the other side of the clubhouse.  However, subtle turns and bunkering helped add interest.  Although I liked the course, I had to doubt it was one of C&C's top layouts.  It had a great old-school feel with small greens, and precise shot demands.  I found #18 to be strangely penal in comparison with the rest of the course.  Highlights:  par 3 #4, #5 green, #6 green complex, par 4 #7 (used to be much harder when the huge tree to the left of the fairway was still there), par 3 #9, par 4 #15, #16 green (wow!).  Shot 79-75 in about 6.5 hours total.

Wednesday, Trophy Club:  I was very impressed with the TC, as I think top 100 public is totally appropriate here.  Almost every hole had some prominent feature to challenge the player, and I agree that the par 5s were standouts with lots of risk-reward decision-making.  I was reminded of a few courses in the northeast especially on the back nine as the course skirts the creek for several holes.  Full marks to Tim Liddy here, as the course seems to be innovative and classic at the same time.  I could probably play this one every year and have a great time, it's that good.  Highlights:  par 5 #2 (first time I have loved a layup-off-the-tee par 5), short par 4 #5, crazy green on #6, short par 4 #10, GREAT par five for the last 100 yards #11, short par 4 #12 (why not sweat over a 5-iron tee shot on a par 4?), par 5 #16 with the creek dominant, fortress par 3 #17.  Shot 71!

Thursday, Purgatory:  Feeling my oats from a 71 at the TC the day before, I decided to tackle the 7300-yard tees at Purgatory in wet conditions and 20 mph winds.  Not the greatest idea, but I still found the course playable despite it being simply too long for me.  The biggest thing that struck me here was that all the bunkers in the pictures do not really look as daunting from the ground level.  They are there no doubt, but they do not need to be carried on every shot.  I thought #17 was strange with the 15 bunkers or so, as the green is large and it's only a short/mid-iron to reach it.  Purgatory is definately in your face.  It's flat, long, mounded throughout, bunkered throughout...it's right there in front of you, and it demands well-shaped shots to avoid the hazards and deep rough.  There are not as many standout holes than at the other three courses I played.  I enjoyed my afternoon here, although I think I will try somewhere else for this round next year.  Highlights: diagonal water tee-shot par 4#2, #6 green complex with its great front pin, green at #8 (480 upwind par 4, ouch), par 5 #9, ballbusting #14 at upwind 460, #16 as a bowling alley between about 20 bunkers, reachable par 5 #18 where you can cut distance by hitting the narrower left fairway left of a centerline hazard.  Shot 79-75, not bad from the long tees (there was one more set behind me at 7800!).

Friday, rained out:  Went to French Lick Ross, but severe thunderstorms were on their way, so decided to skip the round.  I went and checked out the dome at West Baden Springs, then made my way to Louisville to the LSlugger museum.  It was pretty neat for a small place.   The paint machine was covered with the pink paint from the Mothers' Day bats they had just sent out.  Glad I skipped the round, as the rain and t-storms were biblical.  The storms ultimately caused 6 hours later that night in a Detroit airport Best Western courtesy of Northwest Airlines, a fine end to the week (lame).

All-in-all, a good trip.  The FL-Ross would've been a fine bookend, but I will just have to try next year. 

[Andy Troeger]

Brad,
Interesting comments--I would tend to agree with most of what you said regarding Warren. One surprise is that you didn't mention the 10th--for all the interesting holes out there that one's easily my favorite hole and can provide a nice variety of outcomes.

They built a very nice course for the lack of terrain covering about 2/3 of the property. As you mentioned the better holes are generally to the east side of the course and toward the end of each nine.

[Chris Wirthwein]

Brad -- My choice for hidden gem in the Indy area is Bear Slide in Cicero, 30-40 min. northeast of the city, a little west of Purgatory.

Bear Slide is a 36-35, par 71 Dean Refram design. Refram, a former tour player, died during construction of the one-time private, now public course. Within a couple of years after opening 15+ years ago as a private club, it went into bankruptcy and re-emerged as a daily-fee.

The course is mainly treeless; very windswept, with lots of variety -- several very short par threes and fours and a few very long ones. Some folks consider a couple of the short par fours tricked-up. I happen to think they're terrific -- especially 11 and 15 -- both short par fours where a precision tee-ball can lead to easy birdie and a wayward one can leave you shaking your head after bogeying such seemingly simple hole.

Five is a brutally long, uphill par four that always seems to play into a one or two-club wind. The smallish, bunkerless, long and narrow green is the toughest target on the course. Congratulate yourself for a par.

Strategically-placed mounds well short of the green on the par-three sixth create a visual hazard that cloaks the putting surface from the tee. The mounds don't come into play, but they do play with your head. You won't get a clear view of the entire putting surface and can only spy the top half of the flag stick. Count on indecision before, during and after the swing.



Fourteen used to be a terrific, long par three. Regrettably, all deep tees have been removed perhaps in an attempt to speed play. What remains is a bland reincarnation. Too bad. The island green 16th, however, is also a gem.

Recent changes have dulled the design somewhat, but overall you'll find a unique, linksy type layout where the wind always seems to blow. As a result, you will find yourself constanly in an undecided state on club selection.

Greens seem to have barely enough grass to differntiate them from the sand greens. But they play great -- hard, fast, fair and true. Maybe not the prettiest surfaces, but they remind me of some of the rock hard, burnt-out fairways you see in seaside Scotland.

I was a member of Bear Slide when it was a private club; it was fantastic. It's not quite as good as it once was, but still a unique and fun track -- not at all like any other course you'll find in the area. I play at Crooked Stick today and always look forward to playing Bear Slide. There's nothing else like it around here.

For your other choice, I concur with those who recommend The Fort -- it's a beauty. Feels like a bit of Donald Ross's French Lick Hill course, mixed with modern Pete Dye drama. Central Indiana is mostly flat. The Fort is a unique piece of ground for the area -- plenty of up and down and some dramatic elevation changes. Another beauty from Pete.

Enjoy your trip!

[Chris_Clouser]

Brad,

Glad you got to play some of the best in the state.  Kind of disappointed with your thoughts on Purgatory.  Probably my home town bias showing through in my thoughts on the course.  I have only played the 7300 yd tees once and my thoughts were similar to yours.  It is a much better course at the next tees up for me.  The locations of the bunkers make for much more strategic tee shots on the par fours and fives.  I agree with your thoughts about the greens on 6 and 8.  I think those are two of the three best holes on the course.

Next time take up the recommendations for Bear Slide or the Fort in the Indy area.  Perhaps Rock Hollow would be a good sub for Warren on your way to Indy.  Also, if you are in French Lick, see about taking a trip to Jasper and playing Sultans Run.  Similar feel to Trophy Club but on more undulating terrain.  I think TC is a tick better but only because of the variety of the par threes when compared to SR. 

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