[Rick Sides]

I have a question for the group.  I joined a private course about a year ago to not only for the conditions of the course, but also to try to escape some of the "crazy" people that go to the local public courses.  Recently I noticed a lot of teenagers (13-17) year old kids playing without any adults.  Most of the teens are good hearted kids and are respectful, however, there are a few teens that talk a lot while at the driving range, around the putting practice area, and around the clubhouse.  I understand that golf needs youth to advance the game, but do most clubs require an adult to accompany teens?  We also have a few other men, who actually bring their toddlers to the practice area and range and even on the course- I watched a man today have two kids literally hanging off his cart while he played a round.  Do you think I should notify the head pro and ask him to address these issues or am I just being too picky?  Your advice would be appreciated.

[John Handley]

I think it is great to have kids at the golf club but....they need to know the etiquette of the game.  Kids under 16 should be accompanied by an adult.  I'm sure your club has some sort of rules but it appears they are not being enforced.  I would encourage you to take up the issue with both the head pro and the club manager.

[Tim Gavrich]

I would be more in favor of mandating that teens pass some sort of etiquette education course, rather than having a hard-and-fast age standard of 16 or a different age, as deemed acceptable by the club.  After all, there are many 17 and 18 year olds who will be disrespectful of the golf course and other players while there are, by the same token, many 14 and 15 year olds who will be perfect gentlemen and ladies out there.

[Mike Sweeney]

Rick,

Like many topics, it is situational.

I am currently posting from the Lodge at Hidden Creek in NJ. I am here with my 11 year old Autistic son Dustin. With the support of the owner and Head Pro/Manager, I joined the club for this exact reason. Tomorrow morning I will be first off the tee in a cart ( I am a former caddie and support the caddie progam here) and I am a golfer and will make sure that we disturb no one on the course. Dustin rides with me and loves to run around in the open space. He will most likely leave a footprint somewhere in a bunker on the course. Now on July 4th weekend, I would not bring Dustin here but I will bring my "typical developing" son who is 13 to play golf. The 13 year old gets NO FREE PASSES!

Now at some point in time, I am sure that Dustin will piss off someone here. Goodness knows he pisses Dad off at times.  The fact that someone shoots 87 versus 85 is really not that big of a deal in the big picture. However, I am aware that this is an escape for people and I don't want to make it a stressful situation for anyone. I am also a National Member at Wianno Club on Cape Cod and we have at least a couple of Autistic kids there.

Pine Valley, National ...... are different situations and I would never bring my son, because it is not appropriate. Again, it is situational. In the Big Picture, golf is hurting not because of the recession but rather because people (kids) are so busy. If you want to see the game continue to prosper, I ask that you look the other way at times.

[Bradley Anderson]

I think that parents are the best teachers of the game. After a child becomes a player he can get lessons from a pro. But I think that etiquette and love of the game are taught best by parents. But that said, children should be expected to show the proper respect.

[Bill_McBride]

It's great that kids are using your club.  That's one of the main reasons I joined my first club.  My son became a golf junkie, my daughters never caught on but did play a lot of tennis and used the pool.

But there needs to be discipline.  If there isn't, it's a problem to be shared with a board member who should take this up with the club management.  There should be rules for when kids of certain ages can be on the course and there should be dress and behavior codes for the range.  It won't happen unless club management, supported and directed by the board, enforces clearly defined rules.

[JNC Lyon]

I think it is great to have kids at the golf club but....they need to know the etiquette of the game.  Kids under 16 should be accompanied by an adult.  I'm sure your club has some sort of rules but it appears they are not being enforced.  I would encourage you to take up the issue with both the head pro and the club manager.

It is a very unrealistic demand to make all kids under 16 be accompanied by an adult.  If you tried to enforce this rule, no one would ever learn the game.  You cannot expect parents to be there every time their son or daughter wants to play golf.  The best way for kids to learn the game and be good at the game is to be at the course every day (particularly in the summer months) and play with their friends.  This is how lifelong friendships are made, and this is how kids sustain an interest in golf.  Unless you are independently wealthy, you cannot play golf all day, every day with your children until their 16th birthday.  I recognize that unaccompanied teenagers might bother some members.  But you have to consider the consequences of keeping kids off the course during the ages when they should be improving their golf game and making great friends.

Etiquette and playing ability should be the only two standards for playing unaccompanied at a private club.  Age should not be a factor.  Like Tim said earlier, there are plenty of kids who are (A) better players than most adults, (B) faster players than most adults, and (C) better behaved than many adults.  One should always be expected to adhere to dress codes, playing regulations, and the traditions of the game.

Rick Sides,

I am wondering what you mean when you say that kids "talk a lot" around the practice area and clubhouse?  I feel like most kids "talk a lot" with their friends at the driving range, and I feel like that is what most adults do while at the driving range, as well.  Personally, the practice area is my favorite place for discussing golf and life with friends.  I don't think it is a breach of etiquette unless the kids are being loud or wholly disruptive, and I definitely don't think it merits restriction by club officials.  At my club, prosecuting all people who "talk a lot" at the driving range would require punishing the majority of playing members.
 
Kids should be expected to follow etiquette just like everyone else, but the last thing private clubs need are more rules and regulations.

[Rob Rigg]

Columbia Edgewater have a policy where kids need to pass a certain "etiquette and play" grade to make it from the short course to the full course. I think the etiquette element of golf is an important one which is slowly eroding in the US based on my experiences at public courses. People are much much louder in the US than the are in GBI, or even Canada, while playing. The "In the hole" epidemic is spreading to everyday play.

If kids are learning from loud parents who do not understand the etiquette of the game then we are certainly on a slippery slope.

Ideally, all junior programs, whether at a private or public course, would treat etiquette as a key aspect of the game that must be taught to beginners.

I would encourage anyone to bring up inappropriate behavior on the course, whether junior or senior member, to the head pro. It is possible that the member does not know what they are doing is wrong?
Although I am not sure talking on the range would apply?

[C. Squier]

The only time kids on the course bother me is when they are so young that they may get hurt.  Drives me nuts when you have a kid running around the range going nuts and dad isn't paying attention.  Kids don't know the risks, it's all on the parents to keep track of them.

[ed_getka]

    An etiquette class probably isn't a bad idea, but everyone should have to take it. I took up golf on a whim when I was about 14 and walking through a flea market and saw a set of clubs for $5. My cousin and I didn't know anyone who golfed. We went to the local course and started playing. Perhaps we annoyed someone, but somewhere along the way we learned all the etiquette of the game without any formal classes. I think over time a good number of golfers absorb the etiquette of the game, and my advice is to just avoid those that don't. I haven't seen any difference between public and privates over the years with regards to etiquette. Obviously the private club members dress better, but there are nitwits on either side of the fence.
    I think the best thing to do is to make sure your kids learn the proper etiquette of the game by your example. That is what I am doing with my sons.

[Jon Wiggett]

Rick,

it is not just teenagers that are capable of being loud or misbehaving, there are plenty of adults too. It is important that all users of a golf course are respectful towards other users. Maybe by concentrating on noticing those who stick to the R&E you will realise there are more out there who do. Banning or restricting on a group basis is poor form and not acceptable. Why don't you talk to these unruly teens yourself as I am sure they don't mean to upset you.

[Mark Pearce]

I think it is great to have kids at the golf club but....they need to know the etiquette of the game.  Kids under 16 should be accompanied by an adult.  I'm sure your club has some sort of rules but it appears they are not being enforced.  I would encourage you to take up the issue with both the head pro and the club manager.

It is a very unrealistic demand to make all kids under 16 be accompanied by an adult.  If you tried to enforce this rule, no one would ever learn the game.  You cannot expect parents to be there every time their son or daughter wants to play golf.  The best way for kids to learn the game and be good at the game is to be at the course every day (particularly in the summer months) and play with their friends.  This is how lifelong friendships are made, and this is how kids sustain an interest in golf.  Unless you are independently wealthy, you cannot play golf all day, every day with your children until their 16th birthday.  I recognize that unaccompanied teenagers might bother some members.  But you have to consider the consequences of keeping kids off the course during the ages when they should be improving their golf game and making great friends.

Etiquette and playing ability should be the only two standards for playing unaccompanied at a private club.  Age should not be a factor.  Like Tim said earlier, there are plenty of kids who are (A) better players than most adults, (B) faster players than most adults, and (C) better behaved than many adults.  One should always be expected to adhere to dress codes, playing regulations, and the traditions of the game.

Rick Sides,

I am wondering what you mean when you say that kids "talk a lot" around the practice area and clubhouse?  I feel like most kids "talk a lot" with their friends at the driving range, and I feel like that is what most adults do while at the driving range, as well.  Personally, the practice area is my favorite place for discussing golf and life with friends.  I don't think it is a breach of etiquette unless the kids are being loud or wholly disruptive, and I definitely don't think it merits restriction by club officials.  At my club, prosecuting all people who "talk a lot" at the driving range would require punishing the majority of playing members.
 
Kids should be expected to follow etiquette just like everyone else, but the last thing private clubs need are more rules and regulations.

An excellent post.  I'm proud to be a member of a club where 5 years ago you would barely see a young player but now it is common to see groups of well behaved juniors playing at peak times.  If we want the game to survive then we need junior golfers.  We won't have them if we don't make them welcome, or if we demand they are accompanied at all times.

Anyway, the worst breaches of etiquette at most clubs are by adults and we're not hearing suggestions that all adults be accompanied.  Be proud your club welcomes these "kids" and if you see real breaches of etiquette (and not loud talking near the practice ground) have a quiet word.  I was very impressed playing with a member at Elie last year at how he dealt with a pace of play issue caused by a group of juniors.  No talking down, no patronising, just a quiet word suggesting they see if they could close the gap on the group in front.  Problem solved and lesson learned, with no ill feeling or confrontation.

[Steve Pozaric]

Our club has a junior golf program.  Kids start with lessons and graduate to 3, then 5 then 9 holes with tees of differing length to learn the game on Fridays.  Our club's rules is that it is member only (i.e., the primary golfing member per family) play Sat and Sun morning, but not infrequently a member will bring his teenage son out and squeeze in with the group.  In these cases, the son knows the game, keeps up and is fun to have around.  It is technically against the rules, but I think everyone I plays with likes it and wants to do it for themselves someday (not being sexist, but have only seen boys; I have two young girls and I hope someday they will have both the skill and desire to play with my group on a weekend morning, but I digress).  I see no problem with kids on the course, unaccompanied by parents or not as long as they treat the course with respect.  I also think the rules require them to be 16 in order to take a cart. 

I take my daughters who are 6 and 8 to the range and putting green.  They are a little loud, but are learning and getting better and better - both at the game and decorum wise.  They are a little loud sometimes though due to the joy they have of being out there.  I want to channel but not destroy the enthusiasm they have for the game.  If they get too boisterous, I get them to quiet down or we move to where they aren't bothering others.  The last thing I want to do however, is to make the game and the experience unfun.

[Rick Sides]

Thank you very much for your responses. I do agree that kids are the future of the game and I agree that kids need to be at the course because a lot of kids need golf as a good outlet to keep them out of trouble.  Parents should bring kids to the course and help them learn rules, manners, etc.  I think the handful of men at my club, whose kids act crazy, are really the ones that lack proper manners.  As for Bill McBride, who posted that he talks a lot at the driving range, I srongly disagree with you.  A lot of people at the range are trying to concentrate and work on their game- go talk in the clubhouse or in the cart during the round. 

[Tim Bert]

I think it was JNC Lyon not Bill McBride that said he talks on the driving range.  Bill limits his talk - only during your backswing.

[Jed Peters]

Our club has a junior golf program.  Kids start with lessons and graduate to 3, then 5 then 9 holes with tees of differing length to learn the game on Fridays.  Our club's rules is that it is member only (i.e., the primary golfing member per family) play Sat and Sun morning, but not infrequently a member will bring his teenage son out and squeeze in with the group.  In these cases, the son knows the game, keeps up and is fun to have around.  It is technically against the rules, but I think everyone I plays with likes it and wants to do it for themselves someday (not being sexist, but have only seen boys; I have two young girls and I hope someday they will have both the skill and desire to play with my group on a weekend morning, but I digress).  I see no problem with kids on the course, unaccompanied by parents or not as long as they treat the course with respect. 

WHOA.

Seriously?

This was not the case with me growing up. I could play MAYBE 9 holes with my dad at his club late afternoons--and that was after I'd honed my game/etiquette at the local 9 hole pitch and putt par 32 course.

It was never correct for my dad to have me play in his saturday game. No way, no how. Hell, even now, I can't get into that game--and i'm 33 and belong to a club myself!

Of course, just recently I've started to be able to get into my dad's Friday games....that's nice. Kidding, kind of....but seriously....I grew up around private clubs, and my dad took me to hit balls, chip, and putt. But I was not allowed on the big course until evenings--when no one else was out there.

[PCCraig]

The main reason why golf isn't growing in the States is due to the stuffy 'tude that most members and clubs can have towards kids. To block pre-teens from the course essentially guarantees that they will not take up the game as most kids are not going to automatically put a hault on their football, soccer, and baseball dreams just because dad's club is allowing them to play during a reasonable hour.

While I don't think I would ever bring a toddler to the range with me, I don't think there is anything wrong with bringing a young kid out during twilight to hit a few shots around the greens and to get kids comfortable with being on a golf course. That is how kids learn how to act on the course.

This also brings up the importance of building short courses in addition to the planned 18 given the land. One of the best things TCC has going for them is their Primrose nine, which is always packed with kids and families 7 days a week...many times being more crowded than the member's course.

[Andy Troeger]

I started playing golf at age six and won my first junior tournament at age seven. Thankfully my father's club was very understanding of me being able to play and conduct myself properly and was allowed very early to play by myself. I played regularly with my father on weekend mornings usually with friends of his--some of the guys didn't want to play with us but most were very welcoming.

Teaching kids etiquette is certainly important--if they are going to be out there they need to understand the expectations of the facility, but beyond that I don't see the problem.

Jed,
I think it depends on the club--personally the situation you describe wouldn't be one I'd participate in. Most clubs in Northern Indiana seemed to have some kind of junior program.

[Dave_Miller]

I have a question for the group.  I joined a private course about a year ago to not only for the conditions of the course, but also to try to escape some of the "crazy" people that go to the local public courses.  Recently I noticed a lot of teenagers (13-17) year old kids playing without any adults.  Most of the teens are good hearted kids and are respectful, however, there are a few teens that talk a lot while at the driving range, around the putting practice area, and around the clubhouse.  I understand that golf needs youth to advance the game, but do most clubs require an adult to accompany teens?  We also have a few other men, who actually bring their toddlers to the practice area and range and even on the course- I watched a man today have two kids literally hanging off his cart while he played a round.  Do you think I should notify the head pro and ask him to address these issues or am I just being too picky?  Your advice would be appreciated.

Rick:
The Clubs I belong to require the kids to learn etiquette and pass a playing test in order to be permitted unaccompanied on the course.  As far as the little ones in the cart while an adult plays I think this is strictly up to the club.
Best
Dave

[Jon Wiggett]

Can anybody tell me why so many club's in the US are anti junior.

[Patrick_Mucci]

One of the beauties of golf is the diversity of the players.

Old, young, rich, poor, men, women, etc., etc..

One of the tenets of the game is that golfers are expected to conduct themselves in a singular manner.

The USGA rules begin with "Section I; Etiquette: Behavior On the Course"

All golfers, old, young, rich, poor, men, women, etc., etc., are expected to conduct themselves accordingly.

Hence, the behavior of children is expected to be NO DIFFERENT than the behavior of others.

A critical element with respect to young golfers is how they're introduced to the game.
What do they think is expected of them ?

Clubs that encourage young golfers, that first educate their young golfers, and subsequently enforce the rules, including the code of conduct, seem to fare best.  They seem to produce the highest quality of golfer in terms of general conduct and etiquette.

In theory, at private clubs, today's junior golfers are the next generation of members.

Indoctrinating them properly insures that the rules, etiquette and traditions of the game will be perpetuated.

If young golfers aren't conducting themselves properly, the first line of defense should be to "talk to them" to inform them of the error/s of their ways.  If that fails to rectify the situation, temporary removal of their golf privileges should be the
the second line of defense.  If that fails to rectify the situation, removal of their golf privileges for the remainder of the season is the last resort.

However, clubs that encourage and provide a substantive "Junior" program don't seem to have those problems as the kids understand that a breach in etiquette carries serious consequences.

The biggest or most common problem that occurs at clubs without a strong Junior program is the friction between members when a member chastises the young golfer or complains about him to third parties or his parents.

If the CLUB has a strong Junior program, it's the CLUB, the "Junior Program", and not an individual member who enforces that code of conduct.

I've been at a good number of clubs where there's a strong Junior Program and I've always been impressed by how the Junior golfers dress and conduct themselves.

The other beauty of golf is that youngsters can play with adults and in doing so they can learn how to associate with their elders, how to communicate with the next generation or two and how to be respectful while being competitive.  These youngsters are far, far ahead of their peers when it comes to dealing with adults, rules and what's expected of them.

Today, I saw several young golfer having a putting contest amongst themselves.
They were highly competitive, but, respectful of the other golfers on the putting green and around the clubhouse.
Junior golf is a great investment for almost any club.

Many, if not most clubs require young golfers to pass and Etiquette and Playing test before they're allowed on the golf course.
While most parents will posture that their children are capable of being on their own on the golf course, I'd rather have the professional staff make that determination.

[Matt Dupre]

At Rolling Green, we've seen a surge in the number of kids around the club over the last 4-5 years.  We've tried to increase the scope of our Junior Program accordingly - we have 6 Sunday clinics run by our golf staff (first one was today, with 30 kids between 6 and 11) that focuses on fundamentals, rules and etiquette; a Friday morning junior program in the summer, with 2-, 5-, and 9-holers (parents monitor groups, again working on etiquette, speed of play, etc.); and a junior inter-club team that competes with 5 other local private clubs (players between 10 and 17, 9- and 18-holers).

Our kids over 14 are allowed to play unaccompanied by an adult, and they have specific windows when they can play, but those that do have come up through the program, and between that and their parents guidance, they have a clue.  Last year the Junior Committee started "certifying" those players 13 and under who could handle playing by themselves - they needed to pass a playing test with a member of the committee, as well as a rules and etiquette test.

At the end of the day, we've got a strong group of young players who enjoy and respect the game - and respect the adult members who they encounter. It's not uncommon to see a couple of adults join up with a couple of 13 year olds on the first tee at 3:00 on a Saturday afternoon.  In fact, the Junior Committee did not receive one negative comment about any of our kids last year.

One point I would like to address is the thought that it's up to the golf professional or the club manager to police behavior.  That puts them in a very difficult situation with regard to members' children.  We would prefer that any issues be brought to the attention of a Golf Committee or Junior Committee member, so it can be addressed through proper channels, with the parents involved if necessary.

[Carl Johnson]

Can anybody tell me why so many club's in the US are anti junior.

Because the members were never kids themselves.

[JNC Lyon]

Thank you very much for your responses. I do agree that kids are the future of the game and I agree that kids need to be at the course because a lot of kids need golf as a good outlet to keep them out of trouble.  Parents should bring kids to the course and help them learn rules, manners, etc.  I think the handful of men at my club, whose kids act crazy, are really the ones that lack proper manners.  As for Bill McBride, who posted that he talks a lot at the driving range, I srongly disagree with you.  A lot of people at the range are trying to concentrate and work on their game- go talk in the clubhouse or in the cart during the round. 

That was actually me who enjoys talking on the driving range.  At my club, juniors can't take carts, only adult members can take carts.  This is another good reason to promote junior golf: most junior golfers at today's private clubs walk and carry their clubs.  This helps to support the traditions of the game.

[Pat Burke]

I get to live in 2 worlds.  A non profit program that gives kids free lessons and education tutoring, and a private club where I teach.
Interesting, the percentages of good kids/to bad kids isn't that much different.
Our non profit has pretty strict rules and the kids have to EARN their privileges, and the junior at the country club must follow the club rules.
As a very non scientific observation, what I have seen is parents involved with their kids tend to have respectful children.  Parents who enable or make excuses for obnoxious behavior have kids that suck.
The beauty of the non profit, is, our efforts tend to be more appreciated by the parents.  We still run in to the "entitlement" attitude, but as a private, FREE program, we have very little tolerance for it and those people tend to be "whittled" out/
Just call me the whittler

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