Will those who visit Dornoch over the next 6 months.....

[Rich Goodale]

......please let me/us know your thoughts on the following:

1.  Huge swathes of gorse have been removed and seemingly prepared for the planting of grasses, primarlily on the internal parts of the course.  This program has opened views and minimalised hazards (real and mental) at numerous holes, most notably 1, 3, 6, 10, 14, 17, and 18.  Is this a good thing?
2.  The rough when I last visited (April 12) was thick and unlikely to beome wispy as links rough should be, barring some major drought.  How as it when you experienced it?
3.  When taking divots, the turf was not obviously sand-based.  There seemed to be a 1"-2" layer of "topsoil" which I have only seen previously in the dark days of the mid 1980's when the course was mangled in preparation for the 1985 British Amateur.  Has this evil been eradicated or even ameliorated?
4.  There were larges swathes of moss all over the course but mostly near greens.  Has this been eliminated?

Thanks for your honest opinions.  I am unlikely to visit Dornoch again before August, so do not want to make any conclusions in the interim without some corroboration/new information.

Rich

[Jon Wiggett]

Rich,

I think removing the gorse on 17 can only be a good thing. Even in the time that I know the course it has become really invasive. Opening up the rightside of the green would improve the whole visuals and ambience of the hole.

As foor the rest, I will have to play it again before commenting

[Rich Goodale]

Jon

I do not understand what you are saying regarding the right side of the green on the 17th.  No gorse has been removed there, nor need it have been.  The major slash and burn projects on 17 have been down the left side from the tee and on the right side of the lower fairway, the effect of each of which is to dumb-down the fear factor for the various driving strategies on the hole.  Please elaborate on what you were trying to say.

Cheers

Rich

[Mark Bourgeois]

Rich

Regarding #3, perhaps the Links Association can decertify the course.  Royal Dornoch, the number-one rated not-a-links in the UK!

Mark

[Jon Wiggett]

My mistake Rich,

I assumed (silly me ) that they would have removed the gorse on the right. The gorse on the left made the longer hitter think twice about taking on the tiger line up the left side of the lower tier.

I have always thought that if the gorse on the right was removed it would firstly give the approach to the green a much more open feeling and maybe even give the right half of the green an almost skyline green feel when approaching from the lower fairway. Secondly, it would give the green a much more impressive setting being able to see all the full length of the shoreline as apposed to just the gorse.

Don't get me wrong, I like gorse but at many courses since they stopped grazing, it has been let to grow to such an extent that it has changed the character of the course. Wether for better or worse is a matter of opinion.

Hope this makes my answer understandable.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Rich I was there just last night and I think it’s an improvement just look at the views you now get


After

[Rich Goodale]

My mistake Rich,

I assumed (silly me ) that they would have removed the gorse on the right. The gorse on the left made the longer hitter think twice about taking on the tiger line up the left side of the lower tier.

I have always thought that if the gorse on the right was removed it would firstly give the approach to the green a much more open feeling and maybe even give the right half of the green an almost skyline green feel when approaching from the lower fairway. Secondly, it would give the green a much more impressive setting being able to see all the full length of the shoreline as apposed to just the gorse.

Don't get me wrong, I like gorse but at many courses since they stopped grazing, it has been let to grow to such an extent that it has changed the character of the course. Wether for better or worse is a matter of opinion.

Hope this makes my answer understandable.

Sorry, Jon, but I still do not understand.  Are we talking about the same hole, or even the same golf course?  Royal Dornoch?  17th Hole?  Then again, I'm just off a plane from Melbourne, and maybe I'm forgetting which continent I am on.....

[John Chilver-Stainer]

The last time I played at Dornoch about a year ago the Gorse was incredibly high, perhaps 10 feet. Although I am a great fan of gorse, it loses it's appeal when it ceases to be part of the landscape and in fact conceals not only the land forms but also the overview.

In the clubhouse there are some really cool photographs on the wall from yesteryears where much less gorse is apparent . I pointed this out to the secretary at the time and he assured me that they had an intensive gorse maintenance program in progress.

Personally I think this is very positive. Not only will it open up the playing options and improve the visuals but it will also reduce the shaded areas in the winter months and help the soil dry faster.

[Rich Goodale]

Thanks for your thoughts, John

I fully agree on the need to constructively control gorse, and that is what Dornoch has been doing for ages.  What greatly bothers me and others about this issue (one of 4 in my original post) is that this control seems to have gone haywire over the past year or so with acres of gorse not being controlled, but effectively destroyed and prepared for the planting of grasses.

You are right that some old pictures show less gorse than today, but some show much more.  Gorse comes and goes and since holes 2-6 on the Old Course at St. Andrews were reclaimed from a sea of gorse c. 1850, it is very possible that the land on which Old Tom Morris built 9 new holes at Dornoch in 1886 (probably holes 3, 4, 5, 6/11, 12, 14, 15, 16, 17) was also gorse strewn.  To which past do we retreat when seeking perfedtion?

Those of us who have played the course for more than 30 years know that it has already been dumbed down significantly (through the widening of the 7th and 18th fairways, for example).  While I generally like width, I do not believe that it is a principle which deserves to be sacrosanct.  If it were, we should clear all gorse and rough from all links courses and let the balls go where they may.

There is a balance between playability for the masses and interest for the strategist which all great golf courses need to get right.  I fear that Dornoch is getting this balance wrong, but I want to hear from others who will be playing there this year what they think of these changes.  That was and is the purpose of this thread.

Rich

[David_Tepper]

Rich -

I will not get to Dornoch till May 9. I will be interested in seeing what has been done and how the course looks and plays.

However, I would question your premise re: gorse removal and the "dumbing down" of the course. Hitting a ball into the gorse anywhere on the course almost always means a lost ball. That  is a stroke and distance penalty, the same as hitting a ball OB.

As the course has played in the recent past, holes #16, #17 and #18 have essentially had OB on both sides of the fairway in the driving zone and for much of the length of the rest of the fairway. Courses in Florida that have either water and/or OB due to houses on both sides of the fairway get criticized for being overly penal. At least water is marked as a lateral hazard and is only a stroke penalty.

A tee shot on the last 3 holes at Dornoch that is off the fairway by only 3-5 yards on EITHER side of the fairway can reach the gorse (or the drop off on the left side of #16) and result in a lost ball. When the fairways are firm and the ball in bounding a bit, the 3-5 yard patch of rough does little to keep the ball from reaching the gorse and becoming lost.

No doubt I am a lesser player than you and my balls are likely to land in the gorse more often than yours. Suppose all the gorse was removed from Dornoch and the areas were the gorse used to be were marked with white OB stakes. As a practical matter, the challenge of playing the course would remain the same. Yet I think most golfers, of all abilities, would consider those holes to be overly penal.

Can you think of any of the most highly regarded courses in GB&I where gorse comes into play so often as it does (or used to) at Dornoch?

DT       

[Rich Goodale]

Hi David

I look forward to your thoughts when you see what has happened, and please don't just focus on the gorse--look at my 3 other issues too.

As for the gorse, it is not the same as OB, as more often than not one can find his or her ball near the edges (a rolling and/or bouncing golf ball does not get far into the gorse) and take an unplayable lie, or even try to hack it out.  Regardless, errors should have consequences in golf, just as they do in life.

I cannot think of great links courses that have as much gorse as Dornoch did in it's heyday (c. 1980), but that was the era when Crenshaw and Watson and Tatum raved about the course (probably what it was like too in 1964, when Wind was there).  More importantly, the gorse is one of the major features which have always distinguished Dornoch from other courses.  Would you also eliminate the hay at Muirfield or the internal OB at Hoylake, or the blind tee shots of the Old Course, just because they were inconvenient to the casual golfer?

As for 16-18, the first is and was always very wide, except for the long hitters who could reach the quarry on the left, or drive it over the hill (if they leaked it right).  Average players have always had ample room on that hole.  17 was always narrow, but as a 400 yard hole with a severe downslope after the first 200 yards on the upper fairway, it should be!  There have always been two options on that hole--hit an iron to the the top of the hill on the left, short of the bunkers, or hit a ball to the right of that line with whatever club would get you accurately to the short-iron part of the lower fairway, but not so long as to reach the gorse on the right hand side of that part of the fairway.  The first option always required precision and the gorse tight to the left made one think.  Now that gorse is gone and soon one will be able to play that shot with no fear and more certainty (as the camouflage elements of that shot will be gone).  The second shot will no longer require any demands for club selection, as the massive clearing of gorse on the lower right fairway will mean that driver can be played on most days by most people, and wedges to the green will become the rule rather than the exception.  You may think this is an improvement.  I do not.  Finally, the 18th long ago was denuded of 1/2 of its terror from the tee when they cut back the gorse on the left and added rough to stop hooked drives from rolling into what gorse remains.  On the right, however, patches of gorse remained which always played on the mind when one stepped onto the 18th tee, particularly if a score or a one-hole lead was being protected.  Now that area has been neutron-bombed and one can whack away from the back tees without fear.  To paraphrase Star Trek, it's golf, David, but not Dornoch golf as we know it...........

Enjoy your trip and report back!

Rich

[Sean_A]

I am surprised that people think the gorse at Dornoch was overly penal.  I never got this impression during my visits, but perhaps that is because I have played Conwy several times and can attest to the use of gorse there as much more penal.  The only hole at Dornoch that I thought was a bit ott is the 16th.  The slope of the fairway down to the left is very severe (with the penalty being essentially a lost ball) and I believe the gorse up the right should be cleared somewhat.  As it is now, the only real choice off tee shot in the summer is a layup (assuming the wind is not a factor).  But this is only one hole and I could live with it if no changes occurred.  All that said, if the gorse is blocking views I would have no mercy and burn it to the ground just as sure as the Yankees burned Atlanta.  While I can understand Rich's plea for a balance of elements to bring out some sort sort of test (presumably to placate the lower caps), imo, there is no way a shrub takes precedence over the views on offer at Dornoch.

Ciao

[Niall C]

Rich,

You said in one of your posts above that the gorse comes and goes. In my experience it only goes if you take a machete to it possibly even a bulldozer, otherwise it takes over.

As John said it may have a positive impact in terms of the agronomy of the rest of the course but not being a greenkeeper/agronomist I wouldn't know. I would be interested to know what exactly instigated the club to carry out the work. Is the course part of a SSSI ?

I posted on threads elsewhere about Silloth getting paid by English Nature to carry out gorse removal. It would be interesting to hear if the Scottish equivalent have taken a hand in deciding on this work at Dornoch.

On the strategic value of gorse, I think its a cse of a little going a long way.

Niall

[Gary Slatter]

Rich, interesting, I know when you speak of Dornoch you're talking about your first child.  
I played 36 at Nairn yesterday with friends who also play at Dornoch (intenational members of both).  They played 18 at Dornoch and 72 at Nairn this visit and did mention something about cutting back too much gorse is ruining the views at Dornoch.  I also prefer golf views over seaviews, while playing a course.

The reason I played Nairn was because on gca.com I had heard Nairn has the best greens in Scotland so Neil and I went up for the day to "test" and enjoy 36 holes with some old friends (one is the top Sr player in the Bahamas and member of Old Memorial and a couple others).  Found Nairn to be a lot of fun, greens are undergoing spring maintenance and should be good in a few weeks, really enjoyed some of the interesting approach shots, some great green sites, nice par threes, in fact loved the track.  I found it be more natural than most and hope they can keep it that way - great soup, second only to Prestwick.  I forgot, lots of gorse but usually just far enough away from the centre of the fairways - SAME AS DORNOCH LAST APRIL.

[Alister Matheson]

Rich,
            My thoughts are....
 
       1.  Huge swathes of gorse have HAD to be taken away on a number of holes because they had became long and leggy over time some even higher than 10 feet as John has said .when they get to this stage trimming them back only exposes the ugly branches inside the canopy ,also over time they had crept in closer to the fairways and as an example on the lhs of the 17th you could no longer see the 3 fairway bunkers because the gorse had crept in so much .
what has been done to minimise as much as possible the ugly scars after is to cut the centre of the larger areas out first then let them regenerate and after a couple of years take away the outer edge and what your left with then IS your gorse line .

      2. Links rough if not grazed on can become to thick as years go by and each season the grass  dies back creating a denser base year on year  layer after layer feeds the rough more  and more, to break the cycle a flail collector can be used to thin it out ,and this has been done on many areas of the Dornoch Links  to help keep the rough thin and wispy and im in no doubt that any bad areas will be thinned out this year by the greenstaff as and when they see fit to do it.

    3. The fairways at Royal Dornoch are dominated by Bent/ Fescue and are among  the purest links fairways i have ever seen and these grasses would certainly not be dominant if as you say there was a 2inch layer of black soil infact the place would be flooded after a shower of rain !  Divots are repaired with a darkish sandy loam this is only to aid seed germination and most links courses do this could this be what your reffering to  ?

  4. Moss At Dornoch  has never been a major problem but with the size of the greens and such little golf played there over the winter we always got a bit of it coming in at the start of a new year even with spiking and iron applications . with such little daylight and damp moist conditions at this time of the year i just think its nature but as spring comes round and the bents and fescues kick /topdressings/ lawnsand ect ..ect..ect .its no probs. I rememeber a few years ago at Dornoch we had that cold a spring there was no real growth until the 2nd week in May  

Rich as a member of Royal Dornoch you obviously love and care for the place and if you feel so much is going wrong there i would like to think that before posting your greavences /gripes /worries about the course on a website.  you would have been in to have an informal chat with John Duncan who is very approachable and would certainly explain everything you wanted to know.

These are my honest opinions.
                          
                           Dumber Down Ally   x

[Rich Goodale]

Many thanks, Ally, for the thoughtful reply

As for our points:

1.  I agree with you that the left hand gorse on the 17th slightly obscured the view of the left hand bunkers from the tee.  That removal, however, was one of the least significant of those which has been done.  Have you seen what has been done this year?  If so, please let me know that you think it is reasonable.  I've seen gorse clearance projects there for the past 20+ years, and this is something very different.

2.  I hope you are right, but I remember Carnoustie 1999 and Dornoch more recently when this was not the case.

3.  I'm not talking about divot repairs but the general fairways.  The last time I remember divots looking like that at Dornoch was 1985, and that was a very bleak time for the course.

4.  There was no moss on the greens that I saw, but lots of it in the green surrounds.  This was pointed out to me by two very knowledgeable local members, each of whom was very concerned.  Again, I'm looking for reports from people who have been there recently.  Have you?

Finally, I am asking for feedback from people on this site as I respect their opinions, and it is unlikely I will be in Dornoch again before August.  I have already spoken to enough people at the Club to know that my concerns are not just my own, and as a member and lover of the place I'd like to have some independent views on the conditioning of the course.  Nothing would please me more than to be told that I am completely wrong.

All the best

Rich

[Tony Ristola]

......please let me/us know your thoughts on the following:

1.  Huge swathes of gorse have been removed and seemingly prepared for the planting of grasses, primarlily on the internal parts of the course.  This program has opened views and minimalised hazards (real and mental) at numerous holes, most notably 1, 3, 6, 10, 14, 17, and 18.  Is this a good thing?
2.  The rough when I last visited (April 12) was thick and unlikely to beome wispy as links rough should be, barring some major drought.  How as it when you experienced it?
3.  When taking divots, the turf was not obviously sand-based.  There seemed to be a 1"-2" layer of "topsoil" which I have only seen previously in the dark days of the mid 1980's when the course was mangled in preparation for the 1985 British Amateur.  Has this evil been eradicated or even ameliorated?
4.  There were larges swathes of moss all over the course but mostly near greens.  Has this been eliminated?

Thanks for your honest opinions.  I am unlikely to visit Dornoch again before August, so do not want to make any conclusions in the interim without some corroboration/new information.

Rich

The 1 to 2 inches of topsoil. For comparison purposes they'd sliced a section open at The Old Course and there was a 2 inch layer of topsoil.
.

[Rich Goodale]

......please let me/us know your thoughts on the following:

1.  Huge swathes of gorse have been removed and seemingly prepared for the planting of grasses, primarlily on the internal parts of the course.  This program has opened views and minimalised hazards (real and mental) at numerous holes, most notably 1, 3, 6, 10, 14, 17, and 18.  Is this a good thing?
2.  The rough when I last visited (April 12) was thick and unlikely to beome wispy as links rough should be, barring some major drought.  How as it when you experienced it?
3.  When taking divots, the turf was not obviously sand-based.  There seemed to be a 1"-2" layer of "topsoil" which I have only seen previously in the dark days of the mid 1980's when the course was mangled in preparation for the 1985 British Amateur.  Has this evil been eradicated or even ameliorated?
4.  There were larges swathes of moss all over the course but mostly near greens.  Has this been eliminated?

Thanks for your honest opinions.  I am unlikely to visit Dornoch again before August, so do not want to make any conclusions in the interim without some corroboration/new information.

Rich

The 1 to 2 inches of topsoil. For comparison purposes they'd sliced a section open at The Old Course and there was a 2 inch layer of topsoil.
.

Tony

I've also seen Opens at TOC (and elsewhere) where there was zero topsoil (little puffs of sand and dust were all the "divots" that could be seen).  Somewhere between that and 2" of topsoil seems ideal, but this is just an experiential guess and nothing scientific.  Do you, or any other professionals out there, have data on what healthy links turf ought to look like?

[Philip Gawith]

Rich I am going to be up there next weekend and will play a few rounds. I will feed back!

[Rich Goodale]

Thanks, Philip.  I respect your judgement and trust your discretion.  Enjoy!

PS--do not forget to have a meal or two at the golf club.  They have hired Michael Carr, formerly of 2 Quail, as executive chef and the food is fantastic!

[Jon Wiggett]

My mistake Rich,

I assumed (silly me ) that they would have removed the gorse on the right. The gorse on the left made the longer hitter think twice about taking on the tiger line up the left side of the lower tier.

I have always thought that if the gorse on the right was removed it would firstly give the approach to the green a much more open feeling and maybe even give the right half of the green an almost skyline green feel when approaching from the lower fairway. Secondly, it would give the green a much more impressive setting being able to see all the full length of the shoreline as apposed to just the gorse.

Don't get me wrong, I like gorse but at many courses since they stopped grazing, it has been let to grow to such an extent that it has changed the character of the course. Wether for better or worse is a matter of opinion.

Hope this makes my answer understandable.

Sorry, Jon, but I still do not understand.  Are we talking about the same hole, or even the same golf course?  Royal Dornoch?  17th Hole?  Then again, I'm just off a plane from Melbourne, and maybe I'm forgetting which continent I am on.....

Hi Rich,

now I don't understand. Are you saying you have not noticed the gorse down the rightside of the 17th? Or is it that you are so tall that it doesn't block your view? or maybe you have not noticed the elevation to the green fom the lower fairway? If the answer to any or all of these three questions is yes then I am sorry but I don't understand that you don't understand Having a different opinion is not a thing of comprehension

[Willie_Dow]

Rich

Sorry I left you out of my last visit to Dornach's post, but I thank you much for your entry for our play there.  (Bobbie and I )

Our foursome match with a couple from London, who had a" house on the hill" will be another memory of your host full-ness!

Willie