Has technology diminished or eliminated the significance of angles ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat:

Here's a question for you. What do you think this groove change thing will do (regarding degree or whatever) with bringing back the effectiveness of angles?

TE,  I think it's a positive.

If this groove change really has a noticeable effect in this way with these modern low spin rate golf balls it would not surprise me at all if a number of good players and the manfacturers begin to go back towards higher spin rate balls and if that happens it might affect both trajectory and distance particularly off the tee.

I agree, however, it may also cause the ball manufacturers to go back to the drawing board and design a ball to meet that challenge, a ball that might have decidedly different spin rates based upon clubhead velocity at impact.

Never underestimate the abilities of the manufacturers.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff Brauer,

I lost a long post that responded to your post.

If I have the time in the next few days I'll try to recreate it.

I always enjoy your responses and posts.

[Sean_A]

Pat

I think you are stuck in a rut with the the idea of bomb and gouge. 

The phrase "bomb and gouge" didn't eminate from my being stuck in a rut.
It's very apt, at almost every level where the golfer is capable of distance.

I see very, very, very few handicap players tearing up well designed courses no matter how far they hit it.

Then you're playing with golfers who don't understand course management or how to score..
Guys who hit it long tend to fare well today, compared to years ago.  The ball doesn't only go farther, it goes straighter, and that combination results in better scoring opportunities.

Throw me in the rough and give me a sand wedge into the green and I'll take my chances against par anytime. 

Pat

Nothing you are telling me suggests that anything more than very, very few handicap players tear up well designed courses.  Stop worrying so much about technology and just enjoy the game.  If it bugs you that much actually do something rather than bitch. Hit older older clubs and balls and play with like minded people - give Ralph Livingston a call.  Join a crusade.  Do something and report back.   

Ciao

[Matt Varney]

Personally I feel technology has done one big bad thing to golf courses.  It has made really great courses that are less than 7,000 yards a driver and wedge course.  I still feel that an architect or amateur armchair designer like myself for example could work with a talented team of shapers and we could create a par 70 tough as hell golf course at 6,800 yards from the tips.  I would create 5 sets of tees and setup angles into fairways at the 275 landing poles during construction that would require you to be an excellent control player to hold the fairway landing zones or end up in the rough or bunkers. 

Technology has created huge drivers and golf balls that can fly forever long.  If you can design a course that uses angles and rewards strategic controlled play not length from the golfer this course would be fun yet challenging.  You guys know exactly what I am talking about when you go to golf course and every guy is bombing big tee balls from the tips.  Tighten the fairway landing areas to 20 yards wide on an angle grow the rough to 3" deep and then create slick green complexes with tons of narly nasty bunkers around them that will get the attention of any player.

The bomber might hit it 290 yards off the tee but, his ball is 5 feet off the fairway in 3" ankle deep rough coming into the green from a severe angle trying to hold a crowned green surface.  $100 says this guy walks off that green with at least a 6 not birdie 3 on a 400 yard par 4.

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Personally I feel technology has done one big bad thing to golf courses.  It has made really great courses that are less than 7,000 yards a driver and wedge course.  I still feel that an architect or amateur armchair designer like myself for example could work with a talented team of shapers and we could create a par 70 tough as hell golf course at 6,800 yards from the tips.  I would create 5 sets of tees and setup angles into fairways at the 275 landing poles during construction that would require you to be an excellent control player to hold the fairway landing zones or end up in the rough or bunkers. 


But, we've seen that rough isn't an impediment to the better player, amateur or pro.

And, as you lengthen the rough the rank and file membership will revolt.

For all, and especially for them, the game has to remain an enjoyable challenge.
You can't present a challenge for the better player tha overwhelms the lesser player.

Technology has created huge drivers and golf balls that can fly forever long.  If you can design a course that uses angles and rewards strategic controlled play not length from the golfer this course would be fun yet challenging.  You guys know exactly what I am talking about when you go to golf course and every guy is bombing big tee balls from the tips. 

Tighten the fairway landing areas to 20 yards wide on an angle grow the rough to 3" deep and then create slick green complexes with tons of narly nasty bunkers around them that will get the attention of any player.

Could you cite five (5) courses that replicate that arrangement ?

The bomber might hit it 290 yards off the tee but, his ball is 5 feet off the fairway in 3" ankle deep rough coming into the green from a severe angle trying to hold a crowned green surface.  $100 says this guy walks off that green with at least a 6 not birdie 3 on a 400 yard par 4.

I'll take that bet every time.
Someone who's strong enough to hit his drive 290 is strong enough to hit a wedge or sand wedge 110 yards from 3" rough.

And, if he's only five (5) feet off the fairway, how severe could his angle of attack be ?

Can you name five (5) courses where a golfer is only five (5) feet off the fairway and has a severe angle of attack to a crowned green surface ?

 

[Matt Varney]

Mucci,

I left of a 2 in front of that 5 in my previous post it was supposed to be 25' off the fairway.  I don't know where you play golf at but, I can assure that even single digit handicap players coming out of 2-3" bermuda rough or 3"+ thick bluegrass rough are not controlling distance from a 110 yards with a wedge to a crowned green.  They are lucky to hold the surface at allif they don't hit it thin and watch a hosel rocket come flying out over the green or sideways or hit it fat with a pound of grass and have that delicate 40-80 yard shot that could be very tough to get close and save par.

Add to this no spin out of the rough so I don't care what type of ball their playing ProV1, Callaway, Nike or TM they are basically using a shovel to get it out of the rough and advance the ball.  When you tighten landing areas to catch the bombers it requires the player to control the tee shot draw, fade or straight not just swing away and lets go find it mentality.  If you think about 25' off the fairway is less than 10 yards offline and all good players unless they are Fred Funk are going to pull a couple tee balls and catch the rough.

I am not saying make it penal for all golfers your statement was - Has technology diminished or eliminated the significance of angles?

My answer to that statement is "yes" now a course architect / designer can overcome technology with the right property, using natural features, shaping features, bunkers / hazards and graduated rough that rewards strategic play regardless of handicap while catching the bomber that just likes to go deep with the driver. 

I have always wondered what a golf course would look like if the course had wide landing areas from 180-250 yards and then tapered down tight to like 20 yards wide from 250-300 yards.  Rough heights would be graduated so that in the 180-250 landing zone it is only 1-2" in height and then as the landing zone tightens it goes to 3"+ with tall fescues that create the natural narly look surrounding bunkers leadign all the way up to the green complexes.  I would like to watch single digit players on a course like that if they opted to hammer it as far as they can with the driver or lay back with a 3 wood and play strategy into the green on their approach.

Mucci you come on down to Tennessee I will lay a $100 bill on the ground and give you 2 shots out of 3" bermuda rough from 100 and 125 yards and I bet you I end up with the money and both your balls are not on the green!

[Sam Maryland]

Just read and article that said Stenson only hit driver once during the final round -- on #11.  Does this indicate that the angles were actually a significant factor in his round today?  Granted, he hits 3-wood as far as some hit driver.