[Anthony Gray]

  Has anyone noticed the soil difference between some of the inland holes and the holes toward the ocean?

  Holes 5-9 are more soggy when it rains. The bunkers on hole 9 even retain water. To left of hole 9 there is even land that is being farmed.

  This observation gave me a better understanding of "links golf".

  Anthony


 

[Bill_McBride]

I wish I was there to see for myself!  Yes, that is farm land adjacent to #9.  The same is true inland of the holes at the Balcomie in Crail.

[Sean_A]

  Has anyone noticed the soil difference between some of the inland holes and the holes toward the ocean?

  Holes 5-9 are more soggy when it rains. The bunkers on hole 9 even retain water. To left of hole 9 there is even land that is being farmed.

  This observation gave me a better understanding of "links golf".

  Anthony


 

Yes, I certainly remember the difference.  I also noticed it at St Enodoc recently.  Most importantly, the high side of #4 is VERY meadowy I spose because only the wall separates the course from the farmland.  But also the holes above the church are meadowy.  Many links are infested with broad leaf grasses, but not to the point of drastically altering the playing characteristics - though some old timers would probably disagree!

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

I wish I was there to see for myself!  Yes, that is farm land adjacent to #9.  The same is true inland of the holes at the Balcomie in Crail.

It's also true, to some extent of the 5th at Crail Balcomie (the Hell hole, which doglegs right around the beach) which is a relatively new addition (the 5th used to play to the current 6th green) and where I understand the land on which the green is situated was previously farmed.  I wonder whether, over the years, this will revert to links character (it's certainly on what I presume was originally linksland, being right by the beach).

[Tom_Doak]

There are a LOT of links courses in the U.K. where not all 18 holes are on proper linksland.  Starting from the north:  Dornoch and Cruden Bay.

[Bill_McBride]

I wish I was there to see for myself!  Yes, that is farm land adjacent to #9.  The same is true inland of the holes at the Balcomie in Crail.

It's also true, to some extent of the 5th at Crail Balcomie (the Hell hole, which doglegs right around the beach) which is a relatively new addition (the 5th used to play to the current 6th green) and where I understand the land on which the green is situated was previously farmed.  I wonder whether, over the years, this will revert to links character (it's certainly on what I presume was originally linksland, being right by the beach).

The farmland I was thinking of was across the stone wall above #5, #6, #7, to the right of #9 and across to the Craighead, most of which I think was farmland.

[Sean_A]

There are a LOT of links courses in the U.K. where not all 18 holes are on proper linksland.  Starting from the north:  Dornoch and Cruden Bay.

Tom

The one course which always comes to mind is Porthcawl.  A lot of that course is decidedly not links - which is one of the reasons I never rated so highly as a links!

Ciao

[Melvyn Morrow]

Different soil – well I think the prime candidate for that must be The Castle Course OUTSIDE St Andrews.

First of all, it can, in no way be called a Links course, perhaps I would certainly accept The St Andrews Disneyland Course would be a more suitable name. This is classic Test Tube course design by that I meant planting something alien onto an inappropriate piece of land and hope they bond, with some luck, I might see it slipping into the sea before the Grim Reaper comes for me.


If only
Melvyn

[Anthony Gray]

  Melvyn is back.........All is well now.

[James Boon]

Ignoring grim reapers for a minute, though when they look like that...

I seem to recall reading that the ninth at North Berwick was once farmland, similar to that to the left of its fairway? So if it was previously cultivated as such that could help explain the difference, though I don't remember it being that noticable when I was there a few weeks ago?

I also recently played Hunstanton in Norfolk and a few of the more inland holes (3rd, 5th green, 6th fairway and the first part of 8th) had a real meadow feel about them, the earth and the grass underfoot? Again, this was adjacent to farmland.

Cheers,

James
 

[Ben Sims]

Could some of the differences be due to organic buildup over a century of playing golf?  I'm no agronomist, but it seems that all the traffic and certain necessities of a golf course (replacing and filling divots being one of those) over all those years could significantly change the soil underfoot.

Also, if I am not mistaken, isn't the top soil at Sheep Ranch much different than that of the courses further south at the Resort?

This is where someone with vastly more knowledge than I could facilitate my education!!

[Michael Dugger]

I'm thinking about the exposed "red top" at Bandon.

Wherever wind is blowing sand about, you are going to have places where the wind has blown all the sand away....

Seems impossible to have a pure sand base everywhere....

[Garland Bayley]

There are a LOT of links courses in the U.K. where not all 18 holes are on proper linksland.  Starting from the north:  Dornoch and Cruden Bay.

Cruden Bay is not all linksland!?!? Anthony will be devastated.

Our condolences Anthony.

[Dave McCollum]

I thought the same thing at Berwick.  It was very noticable at the opening and closing inland holes at Gil Hanse's Craighead course at Crail.  Just not the same turf as the Balcomie.  Like Ben, I wondered if it might need a few hundred years of maturation.  One morning I was strolling the Old Course at sunrise.  When the fairway mowers came by there was next to nothing coming off the reels.  I had the thought that the turf on the old links had evolved over the centuries into miniture, dwarf-like blades that couldn't be grown on new courses.  Random, uneducated speculation on my part.  I too would love to hear from the knowledgeable turf experts about these things.

As always, T Doak is right about Dornoch & CB.  I don't recall noticing a difference in the turf on the higher sections of these two.  Perhaps I was too caught up in how to play the 8th at Dornoch and the lovely views at both. 

[Tom Jefferson]

Michael Dugger;

At a number of locations at Bandon, there ARE places where there is REDSHOT, which is simply compacted sand with a proponderance of the element iron.  It IS exposed by wind blowing the sand away.

However, that does NOT occur in areas where turf is established, only in areas void of turf.................such as in front of #7 tee at Bandon Dunes, and along the cliffs on #5 and #16.  So, nearly universally at all the courses, the turf is supported by deep, permeable sand.

Hope this helps.

And, FWIW, there is virtually NO redshot (to my knowledge) at Old Mac.

Tom

[Jon Wiggett]

The soil type close to the sea around most of Britain changes dramatically over the first few hundred meters or so.

What I think is a problem for many, even here on this site, is that many people think that the main aim for the greenkeeping crew is to produce a uniform sward across the entire course. THIS IS INCORRECT.

The main aim for the greenkeeping should be to produce similar playing conditions across the entire course. This entails more or less the same maitenance programme but will encourage different grasses in different areas.

Anyone looking at the sward whilst strolling across TOC will notice the strong variations that occur in the grass types even in the space of a few meters. The player however gets a uniform (within reason) playing experience.

As to what is a Links Course you need to define what constitutes links ground. This is a matter of opinion but not fact. It is probably better to stick to discussing links playing conditions .

[Mark Pearce]

It was very noticable at the opening and closing inland holes at Gil Hanse's Craighead course at Crail.  Just not the same turf as the Balcomie.  Like Ben, I wondered if it might need a few hundred years of maturation. 

The Craighead course is on completely different soil and will never be a links.  It's not on sandy soil and sits on top of the cliffs (I agree with those who argue that being at sea level is not a requirement for a links, but I think being on sandy soil that was once at that level probably is).  As has been stated above, not even all of the Balcomie course is on links ground.

[Jon Wiggett]

It was very noticable at the opening and closing inland holes at Gil Hanse's Craighead course at Crail.  Just not the same turf as the Balcomie.  Like Ben, I wondered if it might need a few hundred years of maturation. 

The Craighead course is on completely different soil and will never be a links.  It's not on sandy soil and sits on top of the cliffs (I agree with those who argue that being at sea level is not a requirement for a links, but I think being on sandy soil that was once at that level probably is).  As has been stated above, not even all of the Balcomie course is on links ground.

Mark,

isn't how a course plays more important than the ground it is built up on? I think it is from a playing, GCA or even maintenance point of view. Why is this business of is a course a true 'LINKS' so important?

[Andrew Mitchell]

There are a LOT of links courses in the U.K. where not all 18 holes are on proper linksland.  Starting from the north:  Dornoch and Cruden Bay.

Cruden Bay is not all linksland!?!? Anthony will be devastated.

Our condolences Anthony.

The land on which 9, 10 & 11 are situated would not qualify as true linksland.

[Anthony Gray]

There are a LOT of links courses in the U.K. where not all 18 holes are on proper linksland.  Starting from the north:  Dornoch and Cruden Bay.

Cruden Bay is not all linksland!?!? Anthony will be devastated.

Our condolences Anthony.

The land on which 9, 10 & 11 are situated would not qualify as true linksland.

  Which prooves again the greatness of Cruden Bay..............VARIETY

  Anthony

[Garland Bayley]

There are a LOT of links courses in the U.K. where not all 18 holes are on proper linksland.  Starting from the north:  Dornoch and Cruden Bay.

Cruden Bay is not all linksland!?!? Anthony will be devastated.

Our condolences Anthony.

The land on which 9, 10 & 11 are situated would not qualify as true linksland.

  Which prooves again the greatness of Cruden Bay..............VARIETY

  Anthony

Makes me wonder how pure is our resident purist Melvyn? Fess up Melvyn. Have you played these partial links courses Dornoch and Cruden?
 

[Melvyn Morrow]

Garland

I am as pure as the driven snow, - well you would be if you play Dornoch and Cruden in early spring. 

As for Dornoch, while it’s good, we locals tend to leave it for you guys to play. You guys seem to play Dornoch, not because I believe it has anything to do with the course but because D Ross came from the little town – he being an Icon of American Golf.

For some stupid reason I play just for the fun of it. However, no longer in the rain or snow, as my kilt is getting shorter and shorter with each down pour. Getting the ball out of the cup can cause some women much distress wondering why their husbands are not hung that well. I have always put it down to walking, free movement are plenty of fresh air.

As for Cruden a prince among courses but some are not that impressed, well that means more for us poor locals. But I have not seen the changes over the last few years so do not know how the course is today.

But still do not understand what balls & club have to do with soil?   

Melvyn

[Anthony Gray]

  GO GET HIM MELVYN!!!  Don't let Garland get away with it.


  Anthony

[Mark Pearce]

It was very noticable at the opening and closing inland holes at Gil Hanse's Craighead course at Crail.  Just not the same turf as the Balcomie.  Like Ben, I wondered if it might need a few hundred years of maturation. 

The Craighead course is on completely different soil and will never be a links.  It's not on sandy soil and sits on top of the cliffs (I agree with those who argue that being at sea level is not a requirement for a links, but I think being on sandy soil that was once at that level probably is).  As has been stated above, not even all of the Balcomie course is on links ground.

Mark,

isn't how a course plays more important than the ground it is built up on? I think it is from a playing, GCA or even maintenance point of view. Why is this business of is a course a true 'LINKS' so important?

Jon,

Of course what matters most is how a course plays.  However, now matter how hard and fast and links-like a course like, say, Notts, might be, it isn't a links.  I'm not the one stressing the question.  However, it IS important that courses that are true links retain that and don't, through over watering, fertilisation or whatever, lose the playing characteristics that make them special.

FWIW, the Craighead does not play like a links (and I like it a lot, unlike many who play it).

Mark

[Bill_McBride]

Garland

I am as pure as the driven snow, - well you would be if you play Dornoch and Cruden in early spring. 

As for Dornoch, while it’s good, we locals tend to leave it for you guys to play. You guys seem to play Dornoch, not because I believe it has anything to do with the course but because D Ross came from the little town – he being an Icon of American Golf.

For some stupid reason I play just for the fun of it. However, no longer in the rain or snow, as my kilt is getting shorter and shorter with each down pour. Getting the ball out of the cup can cause some women much distress wondering why their husbands are not hung that well. I have always put it down to walking, free movement are plenty of fresh air.

As for Cruden a prince among courses but some are not that impressed, well that means more for us poor locals. But I have not seen the changes over the last few years so do not know how the course is today.

But still do not understand what balls & club have to do with soil?   

Melvyn

Melvyn, I firmly believe that the Royal Dornoch championship course is appreciated for its merits by American visitors, not for the Ross origin.  I don't think one of ten would even give this much consideration.  It's just a marvelous course with tremendous variety and challenge.  Because I grew up in the western United States I haven't played a lot of Ross courses, but I have wanted to play Dornoch since I read Herbert Warren Wind's article 40 years ago.  I wasn't disappointed at all either!

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