[Mike Jansen]

I have played 3 golf courses that have interior out of bounds between two holes... and in all cases I believe it applies to one hole. 

Is this something that the architects do as a design element/ hazard or do they come later when "safety issues" arrise?

[Jamey Bryan]

My home course has interior OB relating to a railroad running through the property.  Only the roadbed itself is OB, short or beyond is in play for both holes (which I don't agree with).

In our case, I don't think either Travis or Ross considered it a "feature" to be used.  Ross, in fact, eliminated the one hole on the Travis routing which crossed the tracks in play.

Jamey

[Phil_the_Author]

In the case of the 1st holes of Bethpage Black & Green, it came later to address safety concerns...

[Scott Warren]

We had this at a club I was a member of. A par five runs north, then turns almost 90 degrees to the right 100m out from the green, and has a par three and par four running back along it.



The red line shows where the OOB stakes are, but they apply only to the 2nd hole - because the shorest way home is up the 4th in the wrong direction.

The issues comes when the club hosts events for players from other clubs (pennant, club Open etc). I have seen more than one person cross the stakes while playing the 4th, pick their ball up and walk back to the tee shaking their head.

So it's definitely a safety thing. Another course I was a memer of had a railway line running through the propety that was obviously OOB, but that's quite different.

[Jamie Barber]

Not quite the same topic but an interesting solution to avoid an internal OOB...

I used to play at a fairly non-descript course in Cambridge. They had a similar situation when a par 4 which plays as a 90 degree dog-leg right, could be straightened.

On that hole there is a brook which runs in front of the green and then across the dog leg. So rather than introduce OOB, they made a local rule that you had to cross the brook twice with separate shots. So you played over the brook to the corner of the dog-leg, then to the green over the brook again. I thought it was quite a clever solution.

Unfortunately the hole was subsequently ruined by the need to put a drainage ditch in the fairway to avoid flooding in winter, right in the lay up area and blind from the tee because of the trees.

Attached picture shows the hole, with the blue line indicating the brook and the red the line of play with 2 shots crossing the brook.

[Cory Lewis]

We have interior out of bounds between the 1st and 9th holes of one of our courses that applies to the 9th hole only.  The reason is that 9 is a dogleg right par 5 where it would be possible to play up 1 and turn it into a relatively short par 4, therefore the out of bounds.

[Sam Maryland]

There was another thread on this a while back and I think most people came down on the side of not liking any internal OB, including myself.

Phil, in the last 5 years I have only seen the OB stakes between 1 and 1 on Black and Green once, and that was the Saturday before the NY State Open being contested at the Black the next week.  And it got me that day, because most times I hit it down 1 of the Green!  (stakes not visible from the tee that day)  Obviously their goal that week was to keep the good players from taking the shorter route -- and it's a LOT shorter, usualy at least 3 clubs, can be more.

I noticed that they have removed the internal OB between 13 and 14 at Los Verdes, wonder what prompted that?

[Kalen Braley]

Jamie,

I'm curious, what was the penalty if one refused to play over the creek twice?  The same penalty as OOB?   

[Tyler Kearns]

 
Is this something that the architects do as a design element/ hazard or do they come later when "safety issues" arrise?

Mike,

I am not aware on any architect using internal out-of-bounds as a design element, in fact, the safety concerns that arise due to the routing of the holes shown above, would be more than enough to dissuade such a design.  Any time a hole doglegs, it is best to avoid siting golf features for other holes (especially greens & tees) inside a straight line from tee to green on the doglegged hole.  I abhor internal out-of-bounds, and ultimately, I think it is a result of a poor routing decision.

TK 

[Jamie Barber]

Jamie,

I'm curious, what was the penalty if one refused to play over the creek twice?  The same penalty as OOB?   

I don't know - I guess breaking a local rule is in the Rules book somewhere (I try not to read that LOL!). But it somehow "feels" more satisfactory than internal OOB!

I guess one difference is you're only OOB if you ball comes to rest OOB, so if you could hit 300+ yds the green is driveable from the tee even with an OOB on the right - but not with the local rule

[Kalen Braley]

Jamie,

I'm curious, what was the penalty if one refused to play over the creek twice?  The same penalty as OOB?   

I don't know - I guess breaking a local rule is in the Rules book somewhere (I try not to read that LOL!)

Not a problem Jamie, just curious thats all.

A course I used to play in Spokane had the interior OOB on two of the holes, and it was the exact same situation of putting a hole on the inside part of another dog leg hole.  I would think the architect could reasonably anticipate what line golfers were going to take. 

[Jamie Barber]

sorry I updated after you replied !

[Mike Jansen]

Re: the photo example posted by Scott Warren

As a golfer would you consider playing the par 5 the "wrong" way up the par 4 & 3 if their was no out of bounds?

If there are players on those holes, common sense & decency says to not hit at them... but if you are alone on the course it can make it more interesting.

OOB just seems too harsh for a ball hit into an adjacent fairway

[Scott Warren]

Mike, played the way the internal OOB forces you to, the approximate shots you see indicated in the pic are 3i, 6/7i, 9i/PW. You can hit driver and a 5i over the corner, but the trees are pretty tall and the fairway is narrow and angles right towards a creek.

Playing holes in the afternoon, we used to ignore the OOB (when the course was empty) and going via the 4th it's as little as a driver and a short iron.

The difficulty of the hole is a steep drop to the zone where you play the 3rd shot, then a very steep rise to the green. Played from tee to green via the 4th fairway, it's almost level, a bit uphill.

But given the course is crammed into about 85 acres, there isn't really much room to spare.

[Bob Harris]

North Hills in Pa. has an interior OB between the 12th and 15th holes.  If you cross the line playing the 12th, you are OB, but not on 15.  It was a safety issue, but also, it eliminates playing down the 15th fairway and avoiding crossing the creek on the second shot.

[JohnV]

We played the NCGA Junior Tour event this weekend at Poplar Creek Golf Course in San Mateo.  There are two holes with interior OB on them for both safety and design integrity issues.  Without them, the holes players could cut doglegs and in one case totally avoid a water hazard that is a big factor on the hole.  Also, they'd be hitting over other holes.

One thing to note is that the stakes that define an interior OB should be defined as Immovable Obstructions when playing other holes where the OB is not in effect.

[Steve Salmen]

I wish I had pics of this hole.  A friend of mine told me about a course he plays in Beach Mountain, NC.  On one particular dog leg hole, you must drive towards a fairway and then to the green.  He said that you can take as little as a six iron and hit it over a house, and put it on the green.  However, if you do this you will not be required to take stroke and distance.  You will be thrown off the course.

[Steve Burrows]

I wish I had pics of this hole.  A friend of mine told me about a course he plays in Beach Mountain, NC.  On one particular dog leg hole, you must drive towards a fairway and then to the green.  He said that you can take as little as a six iron and hit it over a house, and put it on the green.  However, if you do this you will not be required to take stroke and distance.  You will be thrown off the course.

That hole sounds like one that they create for the Golden Tee arcade games.  Goofy golf; not the real thing.  Some of them on the game dogleg what seems to be 145 degrees.  There is even one that, rather than play out and back with a driver and 5-iron, if you know what to look for, you can turn towards the green and punch a two-iron over or through the covered bridge and knock in a putt for eagle.

[mike_malone]

 Cory,

    When I was growing up at your course there was OB between #18 and #8 on the shorter course across the street. This happened after a rerouting because of the roadway.

[Cory Lewis]

Cory,

    When I was growing up at your course there was OB between #18 and #8 on the shorter course across the street. This happened after a rerouting because the roadway.

It's still there, sort of, the stakes appear and disappear during the year depending on if a tournament is played over there.  Same thing with the stakes between 8 and 5.  Although I think those stay put the majority of the year. 

[mike_malone]

 The stakes between 8 and 5 are silly. Let players on 8 go down 5. That approach is not easy and you can say hello to your friends on 5 as you go by.

[Sam Maryland]

We had this at a club I was a member of. A par five runs north, then turns almost 90 degrees to the right 100m out from the green, and has a par three and par four running back along it.



The red line shows where the OOB stakes are, but they apply only to the 2nd hole - because the shorest way home is up the 4th in the wrong direction.

The issues comes when the club hosts events for players from other clubs (pennant, club Open etc). I have seen more than one person cross the stakes while playing the 4th, pick their ball up and walk back to the tee shaking their head.

So it's definitely a safety thing. Another course I was a memer of had a railway line running through the propety that was obviously OOB, but that's quite different.

I'm all for pushing the envelope in almost all areas of life but you'd have to be pretty damn aggressive take that route --- is it really a common occurrence??

[Scott Warren]

Well it makes sense, kinda... it was OOB when I joined, so I don't know how common it was. But having played the hole that way as I mentioned, it's much easier that way!

The hilarious thing is that the greenskeepers shed you can see in the centre of the pic is staked out about 5m on each side as GUR, so some completely unscrupulous buggers still just bomb the big dog straight at the greenkeepers' shed, take the free drop and then hit it over the greenkeepers shed at the green.

My red line is actually a bit off - the OOB is right of the shed, not left.

Next thing the superintendent and his boys will have to wear motorcycle helmets to work around the shed

[Chuck Brown]

Lon Hinkle would like to add his thoughts here...   

I think it is practically always a design flaw/compromise/safety feature.

Internal OB may sometimes be a better 'control' alternative than other methods (i.e., Hinkle trees), but that could be a tossup.

Incidentally, I was witness to the 'wrong way' option having been taken twice in Opens.  I was there when Lon Hinkle went the wrong way at Inverness at the U.S. Open (He did it twice; the USGA planted the infamous "Hinkle tree" overnight on a Friday, but then for resaons that went hilariously unexplained, they moved teh tee markers without thinking of the tree cover, which gave Lon room to hit driver around the Hinkle tree.  Then, I was again a witness when Meg Mallon went the other way around a water hazard at the Merit Club in the Women's Open.  I wonder if anybody has ever seen a similar thing...

[Ken Moum]

I know of four courses in South Dakota that have an "in the air" OB that's designated by a flag pole.

In three cases, if you hit it on the "wrong" side of the pole, you are OB even if the ball lands in bounds.

At the other course, you have to play around right side (IIRC) of the pole, if you hit it left of the pole, you are required to play backwards and correct your mistake, like a sailboat that misses a mark.

In one case the issue is safety, due to people playing backward up the preceding hole. Another is a combination of safety--the tee shot would be over a school yard-- and maintaining some difficulty in the hole--it's a par five that you could reach with driver, wedge if you cut the corner. The corner is only 150 yards off the tee.

The other two are purely about adding distance to a hole that has no tree or other obstacles to prevent cutting the off 100 or more yards on a dogleg.

All four are stupid.

K

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