[Matt Davenport]

A brief note of thanks to Ran and David for the tremendous upgrade.  It's almost sensory overload...  So many smileys!

Well now the reason for my post.  As a member of The Tillinghast Association I rec'd e-mail from Keith Aufhauser which follows:

"I'm a member at North Shore Country Club in Glen Head, Long Island NY. Our course was designed by Tillinghast in 1914 or so (The Tillinghast Association dates the course to 1917).

I'm looking for early drawings, correspondence, conflicts, pictures, regarding the design of the course. I'd especially appreciate comparative discussions of our course vis à vis others that Tillinghast worked on.

Thanks in advance for your comments. A short note followed by telephone conversation would be good."  

I won't post Keith's telephone number, but his e-mail is keith@aufhauser.net

As a Philly golf guy I am ashamed to say that I am unfamiliar with any Long Island course except for the Rees Jones/A.W. Tillinghast Black Course at Bethpage State Park where I alledgedly studied prior to taking an irrigation exam the following day.  I'm sure there are many lurkers and posters that may be of more assistance to Keith.

I'm curious if this is one of the many courses on Long Island impacted by the construction of 495 or other expressways over the years.  Are you out there, Daniel Wexler?

The Tillinghast courses that I've played have been primarily strong routings.  I'd be happy to offer my opinion of North Shore, but alas, I've not played it.  A comment at golfcourse.com declares that North Shore was described as one of Tillinghast's most prized jewels.  Is this true?  I know there are many lofty designs in close proximity to North Shore--such as Engineers, Piping Rock, etc.  I'll stop there.

Once again, kudos for the upgrade...  I don't think this is a Fazio upgrade, but rather the work of a talented associate  Matt

[Gib_Papazian]

Matt,

George Bahto and I examined the North Shore with the Super 2 years ago and we both agree the golf course is a combination of Seth Raynor and Tillinghast.

There is an unmistakable Road Hole green as well as a Double Plateau amongst others.  I also recall a Knoll complex. In truth, it has some of the best Raynor greens I have ever seen.

I believe that George has actually done some work over there as well as historical research, so you might have your friend contact him directly.      

[Matt_Davenport]

Gib,
Thanks for your response.  I just thought what better place to pose a question than GCA.com.
Matt

[Gib_Papazian]

Matt,
I sent Keith an e-mail offering to fill him in and put him in contact with George. It surprises me that he was not aware of our findings out there. Even Tom Doak identified the Raynor influence in his book.

Come to think of it, I am pretty sure George did some bunker renovation there.  

[TEPaul]

Man, that's quite something! I actually grew up right there in Glen Head, Long Island and I never knew a thing about North Shore C.C--of course I didn't know the first damn thing about golf course architecture back then though!

It sure didn't have any kind of reputation like Piping Rock, The Creek or even Meadowbrook. Not only have I never played North Shore C.C., I've never even seen it--matter of fact I can't even think where it is and Glen Head is not exactly a metropolis!

Where is it? What road?

[TEPaul]

Will you look at my post above!? Dam with an "n" on it is a swear word?? This "suite constructor" or moderator must be from the very heart of the Bible Belt!

[George Bahto]

Matt: i did bunker restoration/renovation/enhancement on hole 7 and 18 last fall - more to do but everything seems to be on hold for the present

aside from one or two green complexes there they are the work of Raynor - it seems he did them when he built Creek in 1923-1924

the course was originally built (either 9 or 18 - no one seems to know) as Glenview CC in the early to middle teens - making it early Tillie

a number of their greens are some of the finest examples of Raynor's work: Road hole green, as Gib pointed out, and they are two great double plateau greens just across a cart path from each other: greens 14 & 17

the 9th is a Tillinghast Redan complex ..... only one of three I've been able to find .....  and has quite a different feel than the rest of this very fine course on one of the better topos on Long Island

hopefully they continue the project

[Matt_Davenport]

George,
North Shore/Glenview sounds like something worth seeing...  As my first post mentions, I was contacted by e-mail by Keith inquiring of information.  I'm uncertain of his motives but I hope your work can continue as planned.  Thanks for posting additional information.

Tom,
A country club name change...  Does the old name sound familiar?  What do you remember of Glenview, or was it pre-steel shaft era...  ?  We (myself and GCA brethren) are interested to know!

[TEPaul]

Matt:

If it was me you're asking about North Shore C.C., I really didn't say it right in the post above. It's not that I'd never heard of it, it's just that I didn't know anything about it--and now I can't even remember where it is. But it was called North Shore C.C. when I lived in Glen Head--I left there at around 21 and that's now over 35 years ago.

I didn't really play golf back then and I sure didn't know anything about golf architecture. There are lots of courses I heard about but never saw on LI. My Dad was an active national amateur competitor sometimes out of LI but mostly out of Florida. He's the only real reason I heard about these courses or played them. He belonged to Piping Rock, Meadowbrook and the Links (NLE) and some others in other states but back then the total tab for all those clubs was probably about 1/10 of one medium priced club today--things have really changed that way!

The only courses I really remember seeing and playing from back in those days are Piping, Meadowbrook, The Links, Creek, Rockaway Hunt, National, Shinnecock and maybe one or two others I can't remember now. I sort of remember playing Bethpage with some of my Marine Reserve buddies but I don't even know what course it was as we were generally either half drunk or completely hungover. We even played  without shirts at Bethpage! But I heard of all the others but never saw them.

Now, particularly when I read a book like Dan Wexler's "Missing Links" I'm just amazed at what Long Island used to have and no longer does. But with some of the others I heard about and never saw I'm amazed now to hear what they were and are architecturally--courses like North Shore, Engineers, Fenway, GCGC, Deepdale etc.

A good example is say Brookville C.C., a course I drove past about 1000 times on my way to Piping Rock and never set foot on the place. I saw it about 10 years ago as a US Mid-am qualifying site and I said to myself I've got to go finally see that place after driving past it all that time so I went up there to qualify and then in the last few years I looked it up in Cornish and Whitten and I find it's a Seth Raynor!

The point is I'm real interested in architecture now and it's too bad that all those years went by and there was all that great stuff around me and I never knew anything about it--I wasted a lot of years, in other words!

[Matt_Davenport]

Tom,
Wasted may be too strong a word in speaking of your early years.  I can understand how you feel about having spent years living in proximity to a wealth of outstanding architecture and not realizing it, but there is benefit to being older and wiser.  You are now older and wiser, and frankly, your present views on the topics of the DG raise everything to a loftier rank.  I just want you to know I appreciate your view on the state of the union--whenever deposed...  I am younger than yourself, but I like to think it is never too late to expand our horizons.

[TEPaul]

Matt:

Thank you--you're very kind! It's never too late to expand your knowledge and on the subject of golf architecture I really do believe that things are looking up immensely, particularly in the area of what we sometimes call "renaissance architecture" and all that goes with that.

I do think it's happening in new construction much more than previously and in the area of the older classic course (and it's architecture) it's happening too. I think there may even be a "critical mass" forming with the latter or maybe it already has formed! I think so many clubs are now waking up and realizing what they have and what they've done to them over the years and are thinking seriously about doing something about it and many have. This is so encouraging, and this is my primary interest!

I think Golfclubatlas plays a benefical role in all this and can probably play an even bigger one! I think we should all just keep hammering away at golfers and classic course members with the Ben Crenshaw quote I just absolutely love:

"Some of these clubs and courses don't realize what they have. They should understand what they have and leave it alone and preserve it. Many of these older courses and their architecture are works of art. They're no different than what's in the National Gallery."

[GeoffreyC]

How can we get Ben to write a letter to the athletic director at Yale?

unfortutunately they think GCA is a pesty little chat group up at Yale

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom Paul,

While I optimistically agree with you that the good word is spreading, there are still too many things happening out there on the dark side, as well.

This past weekend I drove past a course designed by one of the true masters in our neighborhood, which is undergoing a "restoration".  One of the famous par threes runs parallel to the road, and the club has built GIANT containment mounds to the right of the green, which are not only fugly (let's see how the new censoring software handles THAT word ) but also apt to dramatically change the shot values and options for the worse.

The bunker work that is going on is about what one would expect as well...to steal your term, "puffy and upholstered".  

You'll have to let me know what you think when you see it.    

[George_Bahto]

Matt: I have two aerials of North Shore that they had never seen. One was from 1924 - the other was in the 30's - the course was basicaaly TREE-LESS! I mean totally open vistas out to the water.

It is now a virtual arboreteum (jungle), so, as in most other places, we have a problem!

I would "kill" to find a old scorecard of the tillie-Glen Head CC course.  I've tried all my sources, from the USGA thru George Sands, who was Mr. North Shore - thru private collectors and thru the membership - to no avail.

Any ideas would be appreciated.

Some of the Tillie routing remains but Raynor did a lot there .... there is even an old green left zt about 150-yards from the 4th green, right in the middle of the fairway .... anyone familiar with the course?   .... it is at the rise of the hill on fairway four.

Some of the topo on the back nine is simply incredible - you'd think you were in Westchester County of in NJ.

This course could be one of the great ones on Long Island - a sleeper if done correctly - sort of the way Fenway was rediscovered.

[Matt_Davenport]

George,
You've got me salivating (typical Pavlovian response) when you start to talk about old photos.  I love digging in archives for old photos.  I just wish there were more places to find these photos.  As for scorecards...  Is there any more important record/snapshot of a course which is considered more disposable than a score card?  It is a shame that more old scorecards are no longer with us    I would love to chat sometime and learn of some of your sources for information.  I've only really been to the Hagley Museum in Wilmington, DE.  The Dallin Collection is a teriffic collection of courses in Philly, unfortunately Mr. Dallin didn't fly over Long Island (that I can ascertain).  Well, I'll stop here...  I'd love to see your work & when is that Raynor book going to print?  Do you hear that question much, George?  

[TEPaul]

George:

You're a helluva researcher so I'm sure you've gone down every avenue in your search for a North Shore scorecard but if you haven't already you might try checking some tournament data, like plaques on walls of the clubhouse if they go way back (particularly if at stroke play) and contacting some of the families of the players who are on those plaques or in the listings of the club of who won what and when. I know I sure still have some scorecards from my club that were kept by the referee in things like club championship finals even if they were at match play. Of course I only have the ones that I won but the guy who beat me in the ones I didn't win might have kept that particular card.

[Sam Maryland]

Unfortunately this article recently appeared in the NY Post:  http://www.nypost.com/seven/04142009/news/regionalnews/classy_li_country_club_slash_and_berns_164365.htm

Which led me to search out this website for the club:  http://www.nsccli.com/

Which led me to search out this thread in GCA, and it seems as though North Shore is a real hidden gem. 

I'd assume the club is probably pretty open minded about new membership options so anyone who knows anyone looking to join a place, this appears to be one to consider.  Would be a shame to see this one close down.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

The club's website has many membership options available including a "trial membership."

https://northshoreccli.memberstatements.com/tour/tours.cfm?tourid=59569

The club has a rich history, having been founded as an offshoot of the Harmonie Club,and competes in the Harmonie Bowl, a competition with Century CC and Sunningdale CC with one round played at each club.

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