[Mark Manuel]

Down in Pinehurst on a golf trip and have a couple of questions about these two courses.  Played 54 holes at Pine Needles on Thursday.  Never had a group within one hole of us either way.  Good condition and they reopened the pro shop that morning.

On Friday, played 36 holes at Mid Pines in the same amount of time as the 54 at Pine Needles.  Course was packed with kids and high handicappers.  This leads to two questions.  Does Mid Pines have a reputation with the locals as more playable?  Why does it draw that crowd and slow play?

The condition of Mid Pines was also poor compared to Pine Needles.  That was surprising, any reason?

I would recommend Pine Needles and tell people to avoid Mid Pines or pack a nice picnic lunch.

Thanks.

[Carl Johnson]

Never played either one, but my friends tell me that one conditioning problem at Mid Pines is that it sits in low land and does not drain well.  Mark, do you think what I've heard may be correct?

[Brent Hutto]

I've made a couple trips up the road to play those two courses and regarding the beginners and so forth, yes I think Mid-Pines is "easier" in that it plays a good bit shorter and the greens on balance are a little less tricky. Just about every green at Pine Needles seems to have one or more sides on which a subtle roll-off can cause you problems with what you think is a well-placed approach. More of the greens at Mid-Pines are "what you see is what you get", plainer.

Pine Needles always seems to drain better. During dry weather I think Mid-Pines plays fast and just a bit scruffy in that manner appreciated by a lot of people on this forum. But if it has been wet or it's in the winter, I've made at least one trip where Mid-Pines seems a bit muddy in comparison to the more prototypically "Pinehurst" conditions across the street.

I substantially prefer Pine Needles and for my part Mid-Pines is a nice warmup and/or change-of-pace in comparison. If I were going to be there for multiple days I would certainly play both but if I had a single round or even a single 36-hole day it would be at Pine Needles, no question. I've never visited during peak season and so I've not experience the kind of backups you mention. On an empty course you could go around Mid-Pines in 2-1/2 hours and probably shoot under your handicap if you chip and putt pretty good. Pine Needles even one day when I played it dead empty seemed to take my threesome well over 3 hours and that's partly because we seemed to face more tricky/touchy shots around the green and found more bunkers.

I think for the kind of course it is, Mid-Pines is wonderful. If I made a trip and were forced to play just there for several rounds I would not complain (absent any 5-hour rounds of course). But to me Pine Needles is an all-world quality course that I'd as soon play as most anywhere in USA. A number of Dixie Cup participants from a few years back differed.

[Steve Lang]

  54 holes vs 36 holes and you're complaining about slow play???

that does not sound like peak season experience.. 

I've played there between end of March and early June between 1980 and 2005.. they would usually not give us two tee times unless we were very teeing off early in morning and then after lunch..  stating they'd work us in for 2nd round.. as many of retirees go out in morning

I allways felt Mid-Pines a little more hospitable in pro shop and folks on course..

[Matt MacIver]

Was there a substantial difference in price between the two?  That may have something to do with the crowds, which in turn could have something to do with maintenance dollars and/or available access to do the work in-between foursomes.  With PN hosting Majors they probably feel the need to keep it in top shape, whereas MP was designed to be the non-championship local course, and with hosting the annual Hickory tourney etc maybe they feel it can look a little rough around the edges...or are you saying the fairways and greens were in bad shape? 

As for me, I'm a BIG fan of MP, it's like a step back in time for me there.  I would split my rounds 50-50 if given 10, but given just one I would opt for MP, but would ultimately be allowed to be talked into PN by my low-HC friends. 

[Anthony Fowler]

After only one round at each course, I think there is no comparison between the two in terms of quality.  PN wins in a landslide.

Mark, your experience sounds very helpful.  If I return to Pinehurst soon, I will know that PN is better on every dimension: architecture, conditioning, pace of play, ease of access, etc. 

Do others have thoughts on the architectural merits of the courses?

[Jon Heise]

I've made a couple trips up the road to play those two courses and regarding the beginners and so forth, yes I think Mid-Pines is "easier" in that it plays a good bit shorter and the greens on balance are a little less tricky. Just about every green at Pine Needles seems to have one or more sides on which a subtle roll-off can cause you problems with what you think is a well-placed approach. More of the greens at Mid-Pines are "what you see is what you get", plainer.

Pine Needles always seems to drain better. During dry weather I think Mid-Pines plays fast and just a bit scruffy in that manner appreciated by a lot of people on this forum. But if it has been wet or it's in the winter, I've made at least one trip where Mid-Pines seems a bit muddy in comparison to the more prototypically "Pinehurst" conditions across the street.

I substantially prefer Pine Needles and for my part Mid-Pines is a nice warmup and/or change-of-pace in comparison. If I were going to be there for multiple days I would certainly play both but if I had a single round or even a single 36-hole day it would be at Pine Needles, no question. I've never visited during peak season and so I've not experience the kind of backups you mention. On an empty course you could go around Mid-Pines in 2-1/2 hours and probably shoot under your handicap if you chip and putt pretty good. Pine Needles even one day when I played it dead empty seemed to take my threesome well over 3 hours and that's partly because we seemed to face more tricky/touchy shots around the green and found more bunkers.

I think for the kind of course it is, Mid-Pines is wonderful. If I made a trip and were forced to play just there for several rounds I would not complain (absent any 5-hour rounds of course). But to me Pine Needles is an all-world quality course that I'd as soon play as most anywhere in USA. A number of Dixie Cup participants from a few years back differed.

Sums up my opinion almost exactly.  They really are two great, but different experiences.  Its very apparent to me that Mid Pines is a bit more scruffy, scraggly, and at times colorful course.  The shorter yardage, the winding routing, it definitely gives the "back in time", or even cozy feel.  Its the easier of the two, yet no less interesting.  MP's got some amazing charm and beauty, but gives me some memories of some muni I can play any weekend at the same time. 

The vibe at Pine Needles is "championship" as soon as you step out of the clubhouse.  Bigger and more streamlined, you need both more power and finesse compared to MP.  The winding routing gives you a more isolated, you vs. the hole feeling.

I think its fantastic that there's two significantly different courses about a 6 iron away from each other.  Love em!

Here you can see a bit of the rough edges of Mid Pines (in the fw of hole 5), then compare it to the clean contours of the 1st green at Pine Needles.

[Richard Hetzel]

Mid Pines allows all kids FREE GOLF, that is why there may have been so many kids playing.

[Bruce Wellmon]

I played both earlier this year. I loved PN. Truly one of my all time favorites. Great character. I simply didn't get the same "feel" at all on MP. Someone else metioned drainage at MP. It was much wetter at MP for me too. PN hands down.

[Sean_A]

I accept that Pine Needles is probably a better course than Mid Pines and that it is in better condition.  However, I prefer Mid Pines because the walk is better, the golf is still good, I like hanging around there more and it is CONSIDERABLY cheaper.  Even so, I think MP is over-priced.  Having spent quite a few trip Carolina way I have come to the conclusion that quality golf in these states during peak season is expensive - too expensive for what one gets.  Most of the time they say peak season but the courses are just in decent shape.  I recall two years where I played in Carolina during the spring and the courses I played in Michigan at the same time blew them away for conditioning.  This makes no sense to me especially as one year there was still winter snow in the folds of hills in Michigan.

Ciao   

[Roger Wolfe]

Down in Pinehurst on a golf trip and have a couple of questions about these two courses.  Played 54 holes at Pine Needles on Thursday.  Never had a group within one hole of us either way.  Good condition and they reopened the pro shop that morning.

On Friday, played 36 holes at Mid Pines in the same amount of time as the 54 at Pine Needles.  Course was packed with kids and high handicappers.  This leads to two questions.  Does Mid Pines have a reputation with the locals as more playable?  Why does it draw that crowd and slow play?

The condition of Mid Pines was also poor compared to Pine Needles.  That was surprising, any reason?

I would recommend Pine Needles and tell people to avoid Mid Pines or pack a nice picnic lunch.

Thanks.

Pretty simple.  Thursdays are not as busy as Fridays.  Pine Needles has been recently renovated... Mid Pines hasn't.  Anyone else surprised by this?

[Mark Manuel]

Thanks, this all helps.  The only thing that I would add is from a routing stand point MP has two or three points where about four or five holes come together and at times there are a bunch of people congested into one area.  If you have rabbit ears it can be an issue.  Also balls seem to come into those areas from all directions.  We almost got hit a couple of times.

The kids play free is great for golf, I just wish I knew it ahead of time and that maybe they made it after 1:00.

[Roger Wolfe]

Thanks, this all helps.  The only thing that I would add is from a routing stand point MP has two or three points where about four or five holes come together and at times there are a bunch of people congested into one area.  If you have rabbit ears it can be an issue.  Also balls seem to come into those areas from all directions.  We almost got hit a couple of times.

The kids play free is great for golf, I just wish I knew it ahead of time and that maybe they made it after 1:00.

The tee proximity issue is an interesting one.  I have heard several times that Donald Ross wanted competitors to see eachother as much as possible.  We have a few places where tees and greens converge.  Midpines is the ultimate example when illustrating this feature.  #2 helps as well.

[JR Potts]

I was there last week and played, amongst others, Pine Needles and Mid Pines.  I will say that Pine Needles was heads above Mid Pines and if I were to go back to Pinehurst next week, Mid Pines would not be in my rotation.  Mid-Pines had some interesting holes on the back side and had some really good green complexes (1, 3, 17), but overall, it was a giant disappointment.  The conditioning was terrible and quite frankly, I didn't find the course all that interesting.  Pine Needles on the other hand is a treat.  The setting is tremendous, the course flows wonderfully and it is extremely fair and fun to play.  Further, given the greens at Pine Needles, I would HATE to play a local there for money 

In my estimation, this course match-up is a knock-out in the first....with the title going to Pine Needles.

[John Blain]

You can rip Mid Pines all day long but I have always enjoyed playing there. I find the course to have some very, very good holes, interesting greens and is a very enjoyable walk not to mention the fact that is has one of the most beautiful finishing holes in all of golf.
For me, Mid Pines has much more character than PN although that seems to be the minority opinion on this board.
For the modern day player PN is certainly more of a stern test but for a nice enjoyable walk I'll take MP.

-John

[Craig Van Egmond]

I am huge fan of Mid-Pines!  Yes, PN is the superior test of golf, but MP is simply a glorious walk in the park, its like being transported to another place in time.

I'd play MP 2 to 1 over PN. 

[Greg Krueger]

I have to say Mid Pines for me as well!! Great atmosphere, cool routing much less $$. The last 2 times I have played it was in great shape and we had had some rain and it still played reasonably firm. I will say however, if money was not an issue I would play Pine Needles 7-3.

[Brent Hutto]

It's been a couple years since I was up there, has a larger price differential developed between Mid-Pines and Pine Needles? Seems like it used to be something like $120 for Pine Needles and $95 for Mid-Pines.

[JR Potts]

I played Pine Needles in the morning and Mid-Pines in the afternoon.

The woman at the pro-shop said they gave us a favorable "rate" to play Mid-Pines because we played Pine Needles in the morning at the paltry sum of $150.00.   

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