[Brian Cenci]

Two years ago it was Walnut Hills....now the 101 year old CC of Lansing has been affected.

http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/article/20090416/NEWS01/904160328/1001/NEWS

[David Stamm]

Is this a Langford?

[Brian Cenci]

Yea, although I'm told not much of the existing course still exists.  Used to be called Riverside Country Club when it started.

[Mike Hendren]

Debt is an unforgiving and inflexible master.

Bogey

[David Neveux]

The rumors were true, this is unfortunate, but I have a feeling we as a nation will be seeing a lot of this with clubs that have / recently have taken on a lot of debt.  It's really a shame, but as Obama says, "there is no doubt we will get through this."  I hope he's right....GOLF BAILOUT? 

[Joe Hancock]

Holland (MI) CC was auctioned off last weekend for $1.125 mil as well. These won't be the last ones to go, either.

Joe

[Jim Thompson]

Hey, State of Michigan, are you reading this?  Oh Governor... over here.  You see we need to fix this property tax issue in our state before it becomes a giant void.  On another note, I'm becoming more convinced each day that any banker who says he's your partner is just a bold faced lier!  Funny how when the stuff hits the fan no one wants to help you get through the hard time or work out a solution, instead they just go right to foreclosure and receivership.  Does anyone think a receiver can run a golf course for a year and return it in as good a shape as they found it???  Where has the common sense gone?  If a banker is going to encourage the acquisition of debt and the subsequent note he is to hold, then he had better step up to the plate when his business owner falls under the load he helped put in his pack.  To many business have been built around the heads I win, tails I tie construct.  Also, do any elected officials understand the Laffer curve?  Why do we keep electing this idiots in Michigan and the rest of the nation???

2 cents,

JT

[David Kelly]

Where has the common sense gone?  If a banker is going to encourage the acquisition of debt and the subsequent note he is to hold, then he had better step up to the plate when his business owner falls under the load he helped put in his pack. 

Common sense would tell a person that they will be the one responsible for the debt they take on not the banker. 

[Jim Thompson]

David,

In a way I agree with you and on the surface I think most would agree.  That's an easy call.  That said, it seems to me that just like a bartender has a duty to cut off a drunk before he hurts himself or forbid some one else, a banker has a similar duty to keep his client from over extending or at least advise him to stop.  Sometimes the best thing your banker can tell you is NO.  Granted, there can be less sympathy for those that over borrow at multiple banks without disclosing their credit levels, but even then a good banker should do his homework and be sure of what he’s lending to and on. In Michigan right now a number of very good people are getting squeezed while banks are making little or no effort to work through any of these issues.  Refinancing isn’t an option, not under terms that anyone can swallow.  Sadly, there is no financial malpractice statute to seek for restitution.  Perhaps a better way to put it is that it seems like there are a lot more Mr. Potters in banking than George Baileys these days and I ask you which approach is better for the long term growth of any industry or economy?

Cheers!

JT

[Sean_A]

Jim

While I disagree with you in principle (ie buyer beware), I can also see how these are times of extenuating circumstances where it may well be the case that neither lender nor borrower is culpable.  In short, I can't see how the banks make out by foreclosing during this economic climate in Michigan.  For sure, using these short sighted tactics borrower and lender will will lose in the long run and in Michigan's case, the long run is the only hope.  My guess is the banks aren't betting on Michigan's long term future and unless there are serious signs of profit, want out - period.  Who can blame them? 

Though to be honest, the current crisis has only brought on the inevitable in the case of Michigan.  Whether we like it or not, Detroit and its metro area are the heartbeat of the state and this heartbeat has been allowed to gradually wither for my entire adult life.  Much of the northern and western burbs have been built on last gasp auto industry money - look to the Downriver to see the future of these burbs because it can be no other way without a drastic change in state politics and ambitions.  Its difficult to point fingers, but one thing is clear, a state, any state, cannot thrive without its major city thriving.  It pains me to even think about visiting Detroit because I know each time I go back it will have fallen further and further behind the economic ball. 

Ciao

[Jim Thompson]

Sean,

Liek I told David, I agree with the same principle you do, but I think both lender and borrower are culpable not neither.  They are partners to degree and when times get tough, partners ought to stick together.  Lord knows I'd watch your back in Columbus!  Michigan really is a mess and full of very short sighted policy makers.  The majority of my opinions are based more on what friends in the industry have been sharing then my recent past experience as well.

I also agree that Detroit is a mess an sadly the funds of the rest of the state have been subsidizing its fall for the last 35 - 40 years.  I think one of the major problems is the influence that Detroit has on the policies of the state.  For instance, if  you run for governor and win Metro Detroit, Flint, Saginaw, Bay City, you only need to caryy a couple more counties to win.  Sad really.

I'm looking at what will happen when Chrysler has to close and GM is forced into BK in the next couple weeks.  Remember I live on the other side of the state.  Michigan currently has +12% unemployment, a little dream I'm living since December and you know how I am about working for a living.  When all of these items come to bear, current estimates are that another 1.8-2.5 million jobs will be lost in the state.  That will bring the Michigan unemployed levels up to somewhere between 3.3 to 3.8 million in a state of 13.5 or million people or ~25%.  I have a lot of faith in the workers of Michigan, but struggle to see why anyone would invest in the state given its current tax structure and past track record for encouraging business.  Getting rid of the SBT was a good start, but there is so much more to correct here.  I really hope we can make it through this.  I fear the first step will be electing representatives who know what the Laffer curve is and its impact on economic development.

Cheers!

JT

[Steve Lang]

 

Been watching Mich since 1959, man I'm getting old..  first from across line in Toledo, and since '81 from Saginaw perspective (given wife is from there) and '95 Lansing (bro-in-law ex GM'er)

Last summer, I had never seen so many things,..  land, property, you name it, for sale with road side signs.. downstate to upstate..

I used to love to go to evening games at Tiger Stadium, have dinner in Greektown or even Chuck Meuer's (?sp), hockey and concerts at Cobo.. now downtown is scary..  the great state of Detroit, gone..

as Lee Iococca used to say, when in Detroit: either lead, follow, or get out of the way..  seems like the latter now and golf courses are another canary in the coal mine, while it too fights for survival.. 

[Chris_Blakely]

Been watching Mich since 1959, man I'm getting old..  first from across line in Toledo, and since '81 from Saginaw perspective (given wife is from there) and '95 Lansing (bro-in-law ex GM'er)

Last summer, I had never seen so many things,..  land, property, you name it, for sale with road side signs.. downstate to upstate..

I used to love to go to evening games at Tiger Stadium, have dinner in Greektown or even Chuck Meuer's (?sp), hockey and concerts at Cobo.. now downtown is scary..  the great state of Detroit, gone..

as Lee Iococca used to say, when in Detroit: either lead, follow, or get out of the way..  seems like the latter now and golf courses are another canary in the coal mine, while it too fights for survival.. 

While I agree that MOST of Detroit outside of the greektown / starium (Ford Field / Tigers Stadium / Cobo) is scary.  The area of greektown / the stadiums is actually very nice and I have not found it scary at all.  Get much outside of this area and it precipitously falls off.

Chris

[Steve Lang]

   they can't afford to let those areas go ..

[Ron Kern]

http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1882089_1850973,00.html

[Mike_Young]

David,

In a way I agree with you and on the surface I think most would agree.  That's an easy call.  That said, it seems to me that just like a bartender has a duty to cut off a drunk before he hurts himself or forbid some one else, a banker has a similar duty to keep his client from over extending or at least advise him to stop.  Sometimes the best thing your banker can tell you is NO.  Granted, there can be less sympathy for those that over borrow at multiple banks without disclosing their credit levels, but even then a good banker should do his homework and be sure of what he’s lending to and on. In Michigan right now a number of very good people are getting squeezed while banks are making little or no effort to work through any of these issues.  Refinancing isn’t an option, not under terms that anyone can swallow.  Sadly, there is no financial malpractice statute to seek for restitution.  Perhaps a better way to put it is that it seems like there are a lot more Mr. Potters in banking than George Baileys these days and I ask you which approach is better for the long term growth of any industry or economy?

Cheers!

JT

JT....when that bartender has a big tipper going or that banker is getting a commission...that is the problem.....

[Mike Hendren]

Jim,

It has been said of bankers that they love to give you an umbrella on a sunny day but will insist on you returning the moment it begins to rain. 

There is a big difference between a banker and a mere money-maker.  I never consider myself a partner with the borrower and don't want to give them any impression otherwise.  A partner has up side risk.  I don't.  Lending is an extremely thin margin business - I have to be right about 99.7% of the time, no small feat.  Unfortunately, there are precious few risk underwriters remaining in the banking business - everybody fashions themselves a sales person (since when does money need to be sold?).  Fortunately I haven't made a loan that hit the skids in over 20 years but things might be about to change.  That said, I have been asked to handle some residential acquisition and development credits that are troubled.  Bottom line, if the borrower can do a better job with the real estate then the bank, or a third-party hired by the bank,  I'm going to give him every chance to do so, whether the loan is still acruing interest or not.   

You have to remember that there haven't been problem real estate credits in over 15 years and there are an aweful lot of bankers who haven't been at their desks that long. 

Bogey

[Kalen Braley]

A couple of tidbits to chew on.

I had a professor in college tell me. If a bank or institution will keep lending you money, then its a smart business decision to take them up on thier offer because then you can just further delay when you have to actually pay it off.  He said he would take loans his entire life to keep repaying off his prior loans if he could, but said it usually doesn't work that way.  So it seems like the onus is on the banks to due thier due diligence and look at the books of the lendee before they start handing out the green stuff.

On a related note, out west here there are hundreds of old ghost towns.  And why is that?  Because it wasn't feasible or viable to live there anymore.  If life in Detroit and otherwise isn't viable anymore due to loss of jobs....move elsewhere. 

[Sean_A]

On a related note, out west here there are hundreds of old ghost towns.  And why is that?  Because it wasn't feasible or viable to live there anymore.  If life in Detroit and otherwise isn't viable anymore due to loss of jobs....move elsewhere. 

Kalen

There is a bit of difference between a ghost town and shutting down a metropolitan area of some 4.5 million.  Do you have any idea where such a mass exodus of people would go for new lives?  Where are all these new jobs that are going to house and feed 4.5 million people?  It seems to me that it makes more sense not to burden the already overloaded infrastructure of other areas and try to keep the people where there are and make it work.  Sure, your idea works on a small scale, but its hardly a solution for Michigan.

Ciao 

[Doug Ralston]

You guys continue to draw a very fine line between economics and politics. I have kept away from this since Ran allowed my return and I would advise you to consider this. 

[Doug Ralston]

Oh, and FWIW Eagle Eye is awesome fun. Long as you have it you got some golfing to do!

[Kalen Braley]

Sean,

I'm not recommending that anything be officially "shutdown" or otherwise.  The issue is, if you live somewhere where unemployment is high, and work is hard to find, then move.  There are lots of major areas that are doing much better in this department and are likely a more pleasant place to live !! 

Its the same basic adaptation that our species has been doing for tens of thousands of years...we are not immune to this in the "modern" age.  Same concept applies for New Orleans.

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