[Anthony_Nysse]

I find it interesting how folks are saying TOC is brutal.  Playing like for like yardages (we probably played about a 6300 yard course), I didn't find it any harder than many links in the UK and there are certainly some in the UK I think are tougher.  Now it may be true that the course ratchets up significantly from the backs than from the middles and that it is harder from there than any UK links, but there is a reason the backs are called Tournament tees and very, very few folks have any business stepping back there.  Judging from the caddies comments that 5.5 hour are normal, perhaps the back tees should just be closed unless proper flat bellies turn up.  I didn't play particularly well and putted poorly and I reckon I came in with about an 84 which included two triples from the middle of the fairway (seriously unforced errors!).  I understand that wind is the major ingredient in difficulty at Kiawah and that I had a calmish day, but those fairways are designed very well to allow for wind and are wider than nearly every top links in the UK that I can think of.  One aspect of the wind is that (I think, but could be wrong) when prevailing it is an up down wind with very little crossing wind - this would make a huge difference on difficulty as cross winds are far more difficult than up and down winds.  What are folks impression of the direction of he prevailing wind?

Ciao

I think that the course rating and slope clearing defines TOC as difficult.

JNC,
  If there is anyone thing that YH does well, is that it does provide an experience to the golfer. From the dirt road entrance, the minumal maintenance, the old clubhouse with it's creeky doors, YH is something different. To me, this doesnt make it a great course to me. Id take CCof C . I think that the restoration work the Silva did is better over all work. The "template" holes at CC of C are not just that, they have uniquiness to them, as well. The false front on #11, the lions mouth on #16 to name a few. I also think that the golf course has a better flow to it. The square green on the 1st, the short par 4 #2 followed by a neat little par 3. The way the bunkers just keep coming on off the right on the 5th. The par 3 6th that shows alot of the bay . Overall, I think that the par 3s are MUCH better than those at YH.
   I'm not even sure that YH is a top 5 course in Charleton. I'd take TOC, Cassique, Bull Bay, CC of C and I might even take the River course over YH.
  YH is what so many on this site like, or are supposed to like. YH gets ome norority here, not really elsewhere. The first green might be the worst green on a reconizable course in America. But many here like that carival golf, I personally dont.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[Brent Hutto]

I find it interesting how folks are saying TOC is brutal.  Playing like for like yardages (we probably played about a 6300 yard course), I didn't find it any harder than many links in the UK and there are certainly some in the UK I think are tougher.

On my 2007 England trip I played Royal Birkdale and I believe it would easier to shoot your handicap playing it at about 6,300 yards than the Ocean Course at the same length. And I'd think as the wind rachets up that would be ever moreso as the greens at the Ocean Course seem more exposed.

On my 2008 Scotland trip I played Royal Dornoch several times and even adjusting for the funk my golf swing was experiencing the first few days there's no doubt in my mind that shooting a given stroke-play score at Dornoch is harder than at the Ocean Course. Maybe that would even out a bit in high winds or maybe not, gorse in the Highlands eats windblown drives just as surely as do the water hazards at Kiawah and both have some elevated/crowned greens to hit and hold.

I have not played Sandwich but saw the Amateur contest there in 2006. Having seen the best amateurs in the world play there and some pretty good players at the Ocean Course during the PGA Club Pro Championship I'd say that Royal St. Georges plays more difficult from tournament tees especially in a breeze. Now at 30mph+ they both become so brutal I can't really speak to differences but in normal 15-25mph stuff Sandwich just ate up many of the contenders. The difference there was that if the organizers had really saturated the tall-grass areas with marshals, perhaps some more errant drives would have been located. Way too many lost-ball penalties for decent-looking tee shots blown 5-10 yards into the gunch.

Sean has it right about the wind, though. The out-and-back nature of the Ocean Course means if you get a reasonably steady wind that is from the West (or Southwest) or the opposite from the East (or Northeast) it's a matter of keeping the trajectory and spin under control and clubbing correctly. Some courses like Sandwich and Dornoch change direction sufficiently to offer crosswind challenges on any quite breezy day. I think that is a huge difficulty factor. Also, the "waste areas" in places where most links courses would have tall grass makes the Ocean Course less intimidating to good golfers. And there are almost no deep, narrow pot bunkers.

[Ed Oden]

The first green might be the worst green on a reconizable course in America. But many here like that carival golf, I personally dont.

Tony, even if this statement is pure hyperbole, it clearly shows that we are on opposite ends of the spectrum with respect to what constitutes interesting/fun golf.  That's fine, I certanly don't have any problem with differing opinions.  But I do find it a bit contradictory that you view YH #1 green as carnival golf while citing CC of C #11 green as a unique feature evidencing CC of C's superiority.  Isn't it just as extreme?  Personally, I think they are both great.

Ed

[Anthony_Nysse]

The first green might be the worst green on a reconizable course in America. But many here like that carival golf, I personally dont.

Tony, even if this statement is pure hyperbole, it clearly shows that we are on opposite ends of the spectrum with respect to what constitutes interesting/fun golf.  That's fine, I certanly don't have any problem with differing opinions.  But I do find it a bit contradictory that you view YH #1 green as carnival golf while citing CC of C #11 green as a unique feature evidencing CC of C's superiority.  Isn't it just as extreme?  Personally, I think they are both great.

Ed

The biggest difference in the 2 greens is that YH #1 has about 6 tiers on the green that you could have to putt through, where as #11 at CCC, there are 2 tiers to worry about and if youre on the lower tier, you wont be on the green putting, you will be off the front chipping. The ball will not have to be in a roller coaster seat to get to the hole. I liked the #1 at YH before it was redone....

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[JNC Lyon]

Correct me if I'm wrong, as I haven't played CC of Charleston.  My understanding that a golfer who has a below-average bunker game has a chance of never finishing the hole at 11 at CC of C.  To me, this is extreme.  Personally, I love to see wild holes, and I'm sure I'd be thrilled with 11 at CC of C.  However, it doesn't make sense to apply a double standard.  The number of tiers on a green does not equate with playability in this case.

1 at Yeamans Hall, by the way, has three tiers (not 6) and is a pretty standard Raynor double-plateau design.  The false front is probably more extreme than on most double plateau greens.  However, the green is eminently playable, and it doesn't cause pace of play issues.  I'm really not sure what the problem is.  The green is beautifully constructed and very fun to play.  I certainly wouldn't want one on every hole or every course, but if you throw one in there like at Yeamans Hall, you have a very unique start to a very unique round.  Furthermore, the hole itself does not place high demands on tee-to-green shotmaking, so it seems reasonable to have a wild green as its defense.  Having only played just a few 'recognizable' courses in America, it is far-fetched to say that 1 at Yeamans has the worst green of all of them.  It certainly one of my all-time favorite greens on my all-time favorite opening hole.

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