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Dick Kirkpatrick

  • Karma: +0/-0
The dark side of Dubai
« on: April 12, 2009, 06:02:02 PM »
Paragraph 1X is about Tigers' golf course

The rest of the article is a good read.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/the-dark-side-of-dubai-1664368.html

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The dark side of Dubai
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2009, 06:03:03 PM »
I didn't read the article but the city of Dubai is everything that is wrong with this world in a nutshell.
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Dick Kirkpatrick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The dark side of Dubai
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2009, 06:07:00 PM »
I would say even worse than the rest of the world.

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The dark side of Dubai
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2009, 07:07:29 PM »
I've never been to Dubai so have no first hand knowledge but a friend of mine who spent time there on business had the following to say "If the World needs an enema I found the place to stick the tube."
« Last Edit: April 12, 2009, 07:11:10 PM by Bill Gayne »

Jeffrey Prest

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The dark side of Dubai
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2009, 09:43:57 PM »
Amazing article, Dirk. I've always thought Dubai must cheese off Al Quaeda so much (think Hefner buying a condo among the Amish) that it was only a matter of time before something huge went off there but it sounds like it could implode entirely without outside assistance. The comments at the end of the article do purport to offer an alternative view, however.

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The dark side of Dubai
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2009, 01:45:24 PM »
Read the article. I wonder what comments Tiger would have. ::)
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Dick Kirkpatrick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The dark side of Dubai
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2009, 02:20:18 PM »
Tim:

If I was Tiger I would be making tracks back to the USA

Really scary stuff, I would say.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The dark side of Dubai
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2009, 04:05:13 PM »
Tim:

If I was Tiger I would be making tracks back to the USA

Really scary stuff, I would say.

I've always wondered how a city in a region so frought with problems could escape the cultural mess of the region.
Tiger (and all other Americans) should withdraw now.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

TX Golf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The dark side of Dubai
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2009, 05:00:16 PM »
Wow,

Very interesting article. I don't think tiger is THAT worried  ;) Didn't he get something like 15 million up front to design the course?

Mark Smolens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The dark side of Dubai
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2009, 05:28:59 PM »
Based upon what I read, I sure hope Tiger got his $$ up front.  Pretty impressive piece of journalism.  Sounds like a scary place. . .

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The dark side of Dubai
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2009, 05:44:01 PM »
Tim:

If I was Tiger I would be making tracks back to the USA

Really scary stuff, I would say.

I've always wondered how a city in a region so frought with problems could escape the cultural mess of the region.
Tiger (and all other Americans) should withdraw now.
So the cultural problems of Dubai don't happen at all in the US?  Blaming the problem on the Middle Easter 'culture' is a copout.

I am fairly sure that homelessness, large prison population, flouting of environmental standards, imported cheap labour working excessive hours for minimal pay, and  an economic depression have all been widely reported in the US. 

No doubt they are more extreme in Dubai due to the boom/bust being bigger but to blame what is happenning in Dubai to Middle Eastern culture with no regard for American/Western culture is ridiculous.

Great article by the way, thanks for the link, Dick.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The dark side of Dubai
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2009, 05:44:34 PM »
Some parts of the movie "Syriana" really captured the world of the haves vs have nots of the cities of the Emirates.

I love to travel but no way, Jose.  :-\

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The dark side of Dubai
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2009, 05:51:39 PM »
As long as the check cleared I am sure that Tiger is not worried.  How much of himself do you really think he invested in that course?
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The dark side of Dubai
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2009, 06:07:59 PM »
Would be some publicity though, if the service personnel at his golf course turned out to be slaves and a number of workers died during construction.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The dark side of Dubai
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2009, 07:19:31 PM »
Tim:

If I was Tiger I would be making tracks back to the USA

Really scary stuff, I would say.

I've always wondered how a city in a region so frought with problems could escape the cultural mess of the region.
Tiger (and all other Americans) should withdraw now.
So the cultural problems of Dubai don't happen at all in the US?  Blaming the problem on the Middle Easter 'culture' is a copout.

I am fairly sure that homelessness, large prison population, flouting of environmental standards, imported cheap labour working excessive hours for minimal pay, and  an economic depression have all been widely reported in the US. 

No doubt they are more extreme in Dubai due to the boom/bust being bigger but to blame what is happenning in Dubai to Middle Eastern culture with no regard for American/Western culture is ridiculous.


As long as you're OK with slavery. :( :( >:(
Comparing that to any of the problems in America is "ridiculous".
Unless you're going back 144 years ago.

Cheap labor that works excessive hours in America is here by their choice because conditions where they come from are worse and they are free to leave if they want. The people referenced in the article have no means to leave as their passports were stolen.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2009, 07:38:25 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The dark side of Dubai
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2009, 07:32:35 PM »
Well it looks like Tiger is really having an international influence. He has slaves working for him in the Middle(Dubai) and Far East(Nike) :o
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The dark side of Dubai
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2009, 07:52:46 PM »
Well it looks like Tiger is really having an international influence. He has slaves working for him in the Middle(Dubai) and Far East(Nike) :o

Own anything made in the Far East? Perhaps guilty of the same sin?
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Michael Blake

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The dark side of Dubai
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2009, 08:49:02 PM »
Difficult to judge a place I've never been to based on one opinion article.

I enjoyed reading through parts of the 18 pages of comments beneath the story-- many more sides to the story from many more perspectives.


cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The dark side of Dubai
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2009, 09:21:03 PM »
Thank you for posting this article...very enlightening and frankly, I believe every word of it!!!!!!!!!
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The dark side of Dubai
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2009, 10:57:22 AM »
Tiger and his management team are not stupid.  The question is are they able to weigh the morality of the issue against the doing big business aspect?  These are questions of leadership in an organization.  Does Tiger have a stated position on this issue of captive (virtually slave) labor where he chose to do big business and possibly uses this captive labor on the project.  Does his organization and participation in Dubai events give tacit approval to all these totalitarian regime and human rights charges against the Shieky man's one-man rule?  If not, some journalists that are always kissing Tiger's butt for trivial question golf interviews ought to hold his feet to the fire in the next press conference at one of these events and put it to him. 

As a part African American descendent of the slave trade at some point in his ancestory, he ought to be put that question.  What may be particularly disturbing is how wildly wealthy Tiger already is and is projected into the future, and how trivial to his career an extravagant unnatural desert golf course design is in the overall picture of his celebrity/business platform.  25 million dollars design fee, no matter if it is up front or not, and no matter if it is a solid job for his burgeoning design staff, is a piss poor excuse to not address this human rights problem, IMO. 

Tiger's dad said someday Tiger will make an impact in society far beyond golf.  Is this the kind of association and impact that Tiger sees as good for his image?  Or, does he feel like many of those ex-pats spoken of in the article where they drive by the obvious underclass that are everywhere to be seen if one looks and thinks about what is behind the glass and steel and artificiality of virtually everything in that country, yet they drive by and say, my oh my isn't that interesting, and move on?

Joe makes the point that if you buy some Asian country goods you are supporting the same thing.  Well, I think that is correct to an extent.  The difference is that buying cheap stuff made over there on the backs of near slave labor or child slave labor on the individual consumer basis because it is cheap at Wal-Mart is not the same as Wal-Mart making the marketing and trade decision to buy boatloads of the cheapest stuff so they can sell at 'everyday low prices'.  It may start with the individual consumer, but generally that housewife looking to save $5 on a school clothes item for one of her kids may possibly even pay the extra $5 for an item made under more morally mis-guided labor circumstances if the issue was put directly in front of her at the point of purchase.  In that case, it seems to me that the single consumer at point of purchase is comparatively oblivious to the underlying moral issue, just as the ex-pats are described in the article, who seem to take the "out-of-sight - out-of-mind" approach. 

But, it is the leaders of organizations who make the high impact/profile decisions who should take responsibility for the decisions, like Tiger - head of his organization, with his high celebrity profile.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2009, 10:59:01 AM by RJ_Daley »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The dark side of Dubai
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2009, 11:16:43 AM »
Gripping article. 

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