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ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Merion's original routing
« on: April 08, 2009, 07:47:52 PM »
In the newspaper article that was pictured in post #'s 24 & 26 on the Alex Findlay/Hugh Wilson thread, the description of the original 1912 routing for the first 7 holes was identical to that of today.  However, we know that for some number of years, including the 1916 Amateur, the routing was today's 1,2,6,7,4,5,3,8........  Perhaps this is old news to many, but I never knew that there was more than the single change to that part of the order of play.

Since this has (presumably) everything to do with William Flynn and nothing to do with Charles Macdonald, perhaps nobody will care except me.

Since Mike Cirba put that article up first, should he get the credit for discovering a heretofore unknown historical fact, should I get the credit because I read the article closely, or is this something where I was the only clueless one?

TEPaul

Re: Merion's original routing
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2009, 08:03:39 PM »
Chipperino:

You didn't know that? Maybe I'm not understanding you correctly but it seems like you're saying you didn't realize it was originally like it is now and was changed and then changed back again. Merion has always reflected that fact in their histories and it has been in our book on Flynn for 5-6 years now, as late as it is to see the light of day. ;)

These newspaper articles that are virtually flowing out of the woodwork these days on Philadelphia golf and architecture history, mostly from the incredible time-in efforts of Joe Bausch, is some fascinating stuff on a number of clubs but with Merion (and Pine Valley) I have yet to see many that offers information that either Merion or we or me did not already know.

I guess the reason for that is apparently clubs like Merion and Pine Valley and such collected most all those old newspaper and magazine articles the day they all came out and kept them in their club archives which some of us have been analyzing for years now.

This is why it always struck me as sort of funny and certainly ironic when Tom MacWood apparently found a couple of newspaper articles on Merion 5-6 years ago on Macdonald advising Merion and obviously thought he had made some theretofore unknown and unrealized find. But the fact was those articles he found have been in the Merion archives for about nine decades and know to some of us on this website for years!  ;)


PS:
I should add, Chipper, that Wayne is more the expert on the details of Merion than I am but I feel I'm getting pretty close these days since I'm getting into the book fact-checking and editing mode but I should say that I was not personally aware of all these Findlay Evening Telegraph newspaper articles (some of them but not all of them on Merion). Frankly, it amazes me how many newspapers Philly had back then as I guess most all the metropolitan areas had compared to today. As I'm sure you can imagine, clubs like that probably subsrcibed to and trusted some of those newspapers and their reporting more than others. I find this to be the case in most all the East Coast metropolitan areas back in that day. For instance, it seems like the Boston Globe was considered to be something of a rag back then as it was considered to be in more modern times by the likes of the memberships of Myopia or TCC.

Believe me, Chipperino, I realize I'm probably treading on some delicate ground here but I'm simply trying to cast it the way it was for the sake of historical accuracy for our uber analysts and ultra research moles!  ;)
« Last Edit: April 08, 2009, 08:20:12 PM by TEPaul »

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's original routing
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2009, 08:15:20 PM »
Tom,

You are correct.  I did not know that the original was as today, had been changed to the 1916 Amateur routing and was changed back afterwards to what we know today.

Do you happen to know what year the post-1916 "change back" was made?  Was it in 1923 when the new #'s 10-13 were put into play or was it before then?

TEPaul

Re: Merion's original routing
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2009, 08:32:20 PM »
ChipperinO;

For that last post of yours I am going to make you an "Early Spring Gift" of a DVD or CD of the latest version of the Flynn book----all 1957 pages (and growing) of it you can stick in your computer at the flash of a whim for all the information on Merion and more you would ever care to know! ;)

For the fact that you are an old Merionite you will even have access to these notorious and infamously private Merion Board and Committee MCC meeting minutes transcriptions. But if you share them with the Hoi Polloi, HOWEVER, ;) you might have to look over your shoulder for all time to come! They do not reveal anything we haven't already referenced and discussed on this website, it's merely a matter of respect, decency, and manners in the old fashioned, classical or sort of Biblical context, if you catch my drift. :)

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's original routing
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2009, 08:48:49 PM »
classical or sort of Biblical context, if you catch my drift. :)


I don't know about you Chip, but this last comment has me thinking 'pillar of salt' for some reason. But I honestly didn't think even TEP to be old enough to remember that. ;)
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

TEPaul

Re: Merion's original routing
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2009, 09:58:27 PM »
"But I honestly didn't think even TEP to be old enough to remember that."


CharlieG:

Hey, Boy, believe me, classically, biblically or whatever I'm old enough---I guarantee it. I gave up my "short pants" frame-of-mind a very long time ago!  ;)

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's original routing
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2009, 09:54:05 PM »
"Merionite" sounds like a religious sect of some kind.  I know many find the East Course to be a spiritual experience, and some of the Merion threads have made the Holy Wars look pretty tame, but I'm not sure I like the idea of being identified as a member of some cult.

Let's just say I'm an aging aficionado.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Merion's original routing
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2009, 10:37:16 PM »
Since Mike Cirba put that article up first, should he get the credit for discovering a heretofore unknown historical fact, should I get the credit because I read the article closely, or is this something where I was the only clueless one?

Chip,

In the words of the "Wayne's World" duo, "I am not worthy"!

Seriously, the articles I've put up have been almost entirely due to the research work of others...primarily Joe Bausch and Wayne Morrison.

I've just learned how to post pictures over the winter, so I'm simply adding visual aids to my posts with articles they've been kind enough to share with me.

Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's original routing
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2009, 10:46:05 PM »
nothing like a merion thread to take the focus off augusta national  ;D

TEPaul

Re: Merion's original routing
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2009, 06:38:48 AM »
"Since Mike Cirba put that article up first, should he get the credit for discovering a heretofore unknown historical fact, should I get the credit because I read the article closely, or is this something where I was the only clueless one?"


Chipperino:

I say, sure; why the hell not give Mikey and Joey and you credit for discovering a heretofore unknown historical fact!

I mean I don't see what difference it should make if thousands of people once read these articles when they came out about a century ago and were aware of these things. I think Merion's history book reflects this but perhaps not. I know our book has for about 5-6 years now but obviously it's unpublished even if some people who have looked at parts of it don't seem to understand that.  ;)

I hope you realize that this kind of thing----eg finding a newspaper article or two today that mentions something that someone reading it was not aware of before, and then just considering it in a vacuum unsupported by what the actual history of Merion has said for years can lead to numerous threads that last for years!

What I'm particularly referring to is Tom MacWood's 2003 thread on here entitled "Re: Macdonald and Merion?"

In that thread he apparently found a couple of articles that mentioned that Macdonald/Whigam had advised MCC and Wilson and his committee back in 1910 and 1911. Since he'd never been to Merion and was apparently unaware of what its history had always said, I guess he figured he'd just discovered something theretofore unknown.

So he put a thread on here back in 2003 asking if anyone knew what it meant specifically or in architectural detail. As you can see if you look at that thread that's way back in the back pages now some of us here who were a whole lot more familiar with Merion's history than he was told him the details have always been somewhat unknown because other than a few instances (such as Francis's story) that kind of hole by hole detail and who did what and where and when was just never recorded, but that in an over-all sense everyone connected with that project tended to give Hugh Wilson the lion's share of the design attribution while always recognizing the advice and help from Macdonald contained in the early records and in the club history book.

You can even see if you read that thread that first me and then eventually Wayne Morrison who arguably knows more about the details of Merion's architectural history than anyone alive, came on and basically told Tom MacWood the details were relatively unknown and that it would probably be best if someone like him did not try to make too much in a virtual vacuum of those two articles he'd found.

In my book, that was a very reasonable and accurate response from both me and Wayne but if you look at Tom MacWood's response to it, it's pretty hard to miss that he took a certain amount of umbrage at Wayne's response apparently assuming Wayne was accusing him of being something less than the self proclaimed expert researcher/writer he had been telling us all on here that he was.  ;)

Merion's original sequencing was the way it is now, it was changed in the mid teens and then changed back to what it was originally and I think you and Mikey and Joey should get credit for discovering it and pointing it out to the new world.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2009, 06:44:21 AM by TEPaul »

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