[archie_struthers]

 


How do you feel about heroic carry requirements (tee shots only) with huge rewards to the player , and at what distance would you set same today??

[Rich Goodale]

I like gradated ones, where you can bite off as much as you can chew, but also have a recovery possible (i.e. hittting over scrub/bunker rather than water).  The 2nd at Cypress Point is a good example.

[TEPaul]

ARCHIE:

I think a truly heroic carry could be way out there today (maybe 270-275) provided there is a distinct and obvious alternative that is far shorter to get to. Perhaps the best example of this kind of distinct option hole was Macdonald's "Channel" Hole (#4) at The Lido. The hole was essentially a par 5 for most who chose to go to the left fairway which was much easier and shorter to get to off the tee but made the hole play considerably longer. The really heroic carry was to a smallish fairway set up in dunes that provided a straight line from tee to green so that the hole could be reached in two by two good and long shot turning it in to basically a long demnding par 4 for the long player.

But if a hole has no alternative route that is shorter to get to off the tee but makes the hole longer I think the heroic carry should be considerably shorter such as maybe 225-235 at the very most. A really good example of this would be Merion's #18 that has never had a shorter alternative route to get to off the tee  but that makes the over-all hole play longer.

[Niall C]

Rich,

Absolutely agree. I've always loved diagonal carries which reward a brave line but give some chance of recovery if you take on more than you caqn chew. Loads of good examples such as 1st at Machrihanish (at least it was 20 years ago before technology reduced it to a straightforward drive and short iron), and several holes at Silloth with tees located on top of dunes playing down onto fairways which run at an angle.

Another effect of playing to a fairway set at an angle is that the conservative player has a wider landing area provided he can get the ball airborne with a reasonable carry.

Niall

[Jeff_Brauer]

The Cape Hole angle carry is naturally superior in letting each golfer pick their line.  This is a good question and I would love to hear other answers, but here is mine (for the moment)

I know a few Tour Pro players who say they only get 8 yards roll on their 290 drives.  For most good ams to get near 300 yards, they need the tuned drivers, low spin balls, etc. and they get more like 20-30 yards roll.  You would probably want a little cushion since only pros know their carry distance to the yard anyway.  And, most ams don't hit it as far as they think, as per Frank Thomas, so they may only really be hitting their advertised 300 yard drives as little as 280 with as much as 30 yards roll meaning the 250-255 carry might still be pretty good.

But, 13 at Colbert Hills, which just 9 years ago I designed for a 255 pure carry, downwind, downhill,  is too short for college players now, but it probably plays about 20 yards shorter than its actual distance.  It still challenges me!

On my next design for an all or nothing carry option,  I think I would use about 265-275 from the back tees. Obviously that moves around depending on wind, elevation, etc. (My "formula" for +/- is a yard for every yard up/downhill and I add a yard for every MPH of helping average wind speed and subtract 2 yards for average MPH wind against - hey, its as good a guess as any as to what the wind might be.)

Of course, if there is a natural starting point for the fw, I don't care exactly what the yardage is. Obviously, the further you bring it forward the more players you challenge, since not all back tee players bomb it 290-300.  Maybe you shorten it a bit, but add a side bunker for the longest hitters.

I would also shorten it if necessary to make it work correctly for any middle tees if I couldn't place them proportionally.  Oh wait, those have been banned officially at gca.com!  Its much more fun I hear for the other 97% of golfers to NOT have those kind of options off the tee in favor of playing back with the big boys and reaching the green in one over regulation!

[Tom_Doak]

Our new version of the "Littlestone" hole at Old Macdonald [we won't call it the Channel hole because there's no channel] has a carry between 255 and 290 yards over a small wetland to the right-hand bit of fairway.  It will play downwind in summer and it's tough to predict how much effect that might have on carry distance, so we've built in a bit of flexibility, and are prepared to abandon the back of the tee if no one can make it.  But without wind, I think a carry of 270 or 280 from all the way back is certainly within range of some players today.  It all depends on your target audience.

Diagonal carries are not really a "heroic" carry as there is always plenty of scope to be a chicken, and everyone hedges a bit to the safe side.  An heroic carry should be one you're not 100% sure you can make.

I think it's fine to have a very long carry once a round, as long as it's only punished by a fairway bunker and there is some lay-up option for people who clearly can't go for it.  But you rarely see anything like that on modern courses because modern players think it's an architectural flaw if they can't hit their driver on every tee.

[Niall C]

Jeff,

Isn't that the beauty of a Cape hole or a hole that you're hitting the fairway at a diagonal, that it doesn't matter about having multiple tees because each player is going to have his own safe carry point from any tee and likewise a heroic carry point from any tee.

Tom D,

See above. Don't you think its still heroic if a player chooses the tiger line on a diagonal carry ? I think it plays with the mind of the golfer and tests his/her temperament. If the shot was an all or nothing, I think it would be easier to commit. By conquering the doubt in his mind and not bailing it mid-swing that is perhaps more heroic, no ?

Niall

[Jon Wiggett]

Tom,

I have to disagree with your definition of a heroic carry. If you take the diagonal out of it then you are only making any carry heroic for a very small % of players which makes for very boring golf.

In normal conditions I carry the ball about 245, perhaps 260 yards if I really bust it. If there is no diagonal effect then everything under 235 is a dead certain carry and everything over 260 is a no hope shot. Both of these are not very challenging. Yes, you can put in multiple tees lines up at different distances but this is in effect the same as having a diagonal carry.

I believe the diagonal carry is one of the best ways for a course to challenge the golfer to test where he thinks his limits are. Usually people will try and take the shot on at the very limits of their capabilities.

It is only the few that will play it safe all the time and probably more will overestimate more times than not. It might just be the ability to decide when and where to go for it and when not that makes the difference between good and great. Norman & Faldo, Michelson & Woods. Better a live wise chicken than a very dead hero  

[Doug Siebert]

Tom,

From what you say it sounds like you think there is no such thing as a heroic carry for pros?  A pro probably won't try a carry he isn't 100% sure he'll make - those who do don't make the big tour or are named John Daly.  I can have a heroic carry, but mainly because I'll lose a lot more distance on what is a badly missed drive for me versus a pro with what he considers a badly missed drive.

By your definition, heroic carries are less heroic than they used to be with wooden drivers, despite the distances involved being longer, because you don't lose nearly as much distance on a mishit.

Personally, I find the length is rarely what keeps me from trying some heroic carries, but instead its the additional requirement for being straight or distance control being required (i.e., gotta fly it 250, but if you go over 300 you are screwed)

[Jaeger Kovich]

I love a nice triangular hazard to carry from the tee. I think it can provide so much excitement. A true test of bravery and how well one really knows their own game... how much of that corner can I really cut?

I know Tilly was a huge fan of these triangular hazards. Look at #5 on the black course at Bethpage... obviously its a VERY hard hole, but you get a 4-some up on the tee and everyone is cheering on the ball while its in the air to go, or hook left (the safe side). The #4-5 stretch at BPB could be considered 2 of the best back to back holes in all of golf, both with these triangular heroic carries, if you count the 2nd shot a the 4th.

Also for a cape style hole, couldn't you say the tee shot at #18 at Pebble also is a heroic carry?

Personally I think you have to stretch the corner of these triangular hazards to nearly 300 yards (no wind) if you want it to have any effect on a scratch player. With the triangle and multiple tees, the carry for the avg duffer aiming for the short side wouldn't be out of reach at all, and still offer them the same excitement.

[archie_struthers]

 

I keep thinking of a hole that's a par five with an area like Hell's Half Acre or worse to carry to have any chance of going for the green in two. It wouldn't have to be a Cape but logically it appears this could be best accomplished with at least a hint of a dogleg.  and maybe an extension of the fairway at least a little into the hazard. 

Many times I've seen par fives that reward a heroic carry over trees to get a shot at the green in two , and water carries are fairly routine , but carrying some shelf to reach a hidden fall away fairway would be way cool!  I'm going to learn how to draw online this week and will show what I'm thinking of . The fairway could end or even extend into the hazard at the side opposite the most aggressive line of attack .  I'm thinking it;s got to be around 275 -300 yds depending of elevation.

Think about the tenth at Augusta with some more teeth to demand accuracy .  Then you have the hole I'm thinking of , just stretched out another hundred yards or so . Also the famous 17th at Philly CC's Spring Mill course (where Iron Byron made a famous eagle @) could be stretched and twisted to fit the bill.

Heroic carries are fun as they get the adrenaline gong . They can a real test of one's golf IQ and cajones.   No doubt they make for great debate after a round  while savoring a few pints and telling lies! 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jeff,

Isn't that the beauty of a Cape hole or a hole that you're hitting the fairway at a diagonal, that it doesn't matter about having multiple tees because each player is going to have his own safe carry point from any tee and likewise a heroic carry point from any tee.

Tom D,

See above. Don't you think its still heroic if a player chooses the tiger line on a diagonal carry ? I think it plays with the mind of the golfer and tests his/her temperament. If the shot was an all or nothing, I think it would be easier to commit. By conquering the doubt in his mind and not bailing it mid-swing that is perhaps more heroic, no ?

Niall

Niall,

What would be the strategic point of a 220 hitter carrying his max over a Cape hole if the result was a hole so long he still couldn't reach the green?  There is no reward for the risk and anyone playing for score would simply play the bailout, no?  Of all the holes that would benefit from multiple tees, I would think one specifically conceptualized to reward accurate length would best benefit from forward tees tuned to the typical tee shots of those who play them.

I generally agree with your statement to TD, though. Not to answer for him, but he has written here before, and I have heard from Tour Pros I know that they are so confident with their carry distances that the heroic shot in general is not as hard for them.  A cape hole, with no fw bunkers or targets to mark the line for them and a gentle angle - certainly under 30 degrees and maybe more like 15-20 is the hardest for them to judge, even though most have great distance perception and judgement.   A smaller fw angle really makes the choice a lot harder than a steeper one.

On an all or nothing option they know their carry distance - say 275 - and then make some mental adjustments for wind and elevation changes, so there is a very limited "go-no go" range for better players compared to a well designed Cape Hole.

However, its also quite possible that the long ball has diminshed the Cape for the best players.  Why risk the water with a driver when coming over a bunker with a mid or short iron is a lot easier these days?  As Archie hints, maybe the Cape concept works best on barely reachable par 5 holes to really cut some distance and where coming over a bunker from the safe side with a long iron or fw metal is substantially harder.

[Norbert P]

  If not overused and doesn't force the heroic, they're a fun feature. On Wine Valley's par 5 7th, there is a right edge fairway bunker that fronts an encroaching hill.  The fairway is huge so there is plenty of width to skirt around it, but if the big hitter clears directly over the bunker, the ball will turbo boost several tens of yards further, shortening the second shot by a couple of clubs, to the green.

[Sean_A]

How do you feel about heroic carry requirements (tee shots only) with huge rewards to the player , and at what distance would you set same today??

Archie

I like the idea of heroic carries if only for variety sake because unlike Jeff, I don't think there is such a thing as superior type of carry.  We need all sorts of design methods, the issue is getting the right balance - that is what superior is.  However, like Rihc, I prefer if the failure in not making the heroic carry is not necessarily a penalty or lost ball.  I think these sorts of carries which involve lost balls are best reserved for diagonal carries.  As for the yardage, I agree with Tom, it must be one that the player is uncertain he can carry (or else why call it heroic?) - meaning sometimes he pulls it off and sometimes he doesn't.  For me, this would be around 225 in neutral conditions.  All that said, I think I like the idea of the heroic carry for the approach better than the tee shot.

Ciao

Ciao

[ed_getka]

Our new version of the "Littlestone" hole at Old Macdonald [we won't call it the Channel hole because there's no channel] has a carry between 255 and 290 yards over a small wetland to the right-hand bit of fairway.  It will play downwind in summer and it's tough to predict how much effect that might have on carry distance, so we've built in a bit of flexibility, and are prepared to abandon the back of the tee if no one can make it.  But without wind, I think a carry of 270 or 280 from all the way back is certainly within range of some players today.  It all depends on your target audience.

Diagonal carries are not really a "heroic" carry as there is always plenty of scope to be a chicken, and everyone hedges a bit to the safe side.  An heroic carry should be one you're not 100% sure you can make.

I think it's fine to have a very long carry once a round, as long as it's only punished by a fairway bunker and there is some lay-up option for people who clearly can't go for it.  But you rarely see anything like that on modern courses because modern players think it's an architectural flaw if they can't hit their driver on every tee.

I think a diagonal is the best way of making most golfers think they are taking on a "heroic" shot. Now if there is no downside to bailing out to leave a longer approach shot or a poorer angle into the green then I would agree that the heroic carry isn't really that big of a deal. I think the diagonal works best when going through the other side of the fairway  is/can be the result of taking a safer line. The other advantage of the diagonal carry is that it allows a golfer to choose their line based on how they are playing that day. I think most golfers will try to take a rather aggressive line and if the fwy isn't too wide then there is a limited window for almost any line a golfer would choose (within the scope of mortal golfers that is) I guess the way I'm envisioning it is that if I take what is an aggressive line for me then I can just swing away. However, if I decide to play safe I should have to work the ball to keep it from going through the fwy or take less club thus leaving me with a longer next shot. I will concede that knowing you can miss your shot a little and be safe does make it easier on the nerves, but for the average golfer I don't think it makes it that much easier as compared to really good golfers.

[archie_struthers]

 

Im going to work on my computer skills and post some graphics on this heroic carry hole soon in the interim , I drew it on a sketchpad LOL

[Niall C]

Jeff B,

Surely the strategic point for a 220 hitter (clearly we're thinking about a club golfer rather than pro) would be that he would have a shorter 3rd shot to the green, no ? Lets say the player is hitting in a wedge rather than a 7 iron, he's got to fancy he's going to have a better chance at a birdie.

I appreciate from the pro's point of view if he's not going to get up in two anyway he'll take the safer option but maybe us guys who don't play in regulation don't see it that way, I know I do. Plus there's always the challenge which makes it more fun. For a heroic hole as described by you and Tom with a fixed carry, either its in your range or not so maybe not much to think about.

Niall

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