[Carl Rogers]

A lot of threads on this site dovetail ..... see "A suggestion by Doak..."

As many GCA's as there are here, I would think that an occasional restoration project (however 'interpretive') would require a different level or type of thinking that might be a welcome change. 

If golf course design documentation were more commonplace than this thread would not have to be.

Would not a somewhat uninspired restoration based on complete documentation be better than bothched remodelings?

[Scott Warren]

Sorry Scott, but Chris is quite correct in drawing attention to the fact that you are making derogatory statements about an architect whom you have seen none of his work, especially the examples that you choose to quote. This is poor form and is a black mark against your credibility here, even allowing for the fact that you are still very much a newbie and have much to learn. To quote Portsea at all is ludicrous considering Cashmore has not even started there.

In relation to his work at Commonwealth and Kingswood, I can however confirm, with the benefit of multiple games at each course,  that the Cashmore work there represents architectural vandalism of the highest order, which has of course resulted in him being shown the door at both clubs in favour of architects who have demonstrated at least some sympathetic understanding of the style of work at both courses. But you wouldn't know that because you have never been there so how can your opinion have any merit whatsoever?

Shane,

So nothing I said is in fact incorrect? And the fact I cited the "hysteria" over Portsea didn't suggest it is pre-emptive?

I didn't claim to be an authority on either course, I simply added something I knew to be true.

If commenting on work from photography and dozens of comments from knowledgeable acquaintances is out of bounds, I'd imagine a good deal of what has been said about the world's greatest courses is null and void, regardless of how accurate it is.

But if I have upset anyone, I humbly apologise...

[Chris Kane]

So nothing I said is in fact incorrect? And the fact I cited the "hysteria" over Portsea didn't suggest it is pre-emptive?

I didn't claim to be an authority on either course, I simply added something I knew to be true.

Scott, that is just pitiful.  And if you think that insisting on first-hand knowledge as a prerequisite to making very strong negative comments about an architect is "childish games", we will have to agree to disagree.  It brings this website (and the maker of the statement) into disrepute.  Its no wonder that many architects don't take this forum seriously when they can be personally attacked by someone who hasn't even seen their work!

I made the mistake in my younger days of making negative comment on work I hadn't seen, and was rightfully pilloried from all quarters.  Whether what I said was "correct" (or the popular view at the time) was completely irrelevant. 

And the "hysteria" over Portsea isn't directed at the Cashmores - its directed at the club, for (1) embarking on the project, and (2) the choice of architect.  I haven't heard any complaint about what Cashmore has planned - his work there will be judged on its merits, like his other work.

[Scott Warren]

Fair call Chris, not sure it's "pitiful", but point taken. But the fact that the mere naming of the architect caused such terror, regardless of who the terror/anger was directed at, makes a pretty big statement about what the architect has done elsewhere, doesn't it?

As far as commenting without seeing, how is it the ANGC threads appear so frequently and run so long?

Anyhow, let's leave it at that. Peace.

[Shane Gurnett]

Scott, your opinion will be highly valued here if you take the time to view the courses yourself rather than rely on the comments of others. The architect in question here has been subject to intense past criticism of his work on established courses (but not his new courses), and in time it would be interesting to see what you make of the same work, assuming you ever make the visit to Melbourne. Some of the work, in particular that at Kingswood, is just appalling and now thankfully is being fixed up to a respectable standard.

[Scott Warren]

I do look forward to making the trip, and am a bit embarrassed that I haven't already. All in good time. Cheers.

[Mike_Cirba]

Jeff,

I have played plenty of courses where Rees Jones and Tom Fazio have remodelled and/or restored (and I use that term VERY loosely  ) and I have to tell you in all honesty and trying to be completely fair and objective...

There ain't no way that their work comes within a light year of Renaissance, or Gil Hanse's team, or some others who actually care to honor great historic work...

And I think in one case its because he doesn't care to and believes his work is inherently superior and in the other case I'm truly not sure whether he cares to and just doesn't understand how to, or whether he just loves his own style so much he can't do anything else.

In the case of Merion, the 2D shapes as seen from the sky were accurately shaped, but neither their deeper depth, their steeper steepness, or their thick, hairy grass faces that dip way into what used to be flashed sand bear any relation to anything that ever existed at Merion in the previous 90+ years. 

I really don't think there is anyone in town who would contest that assessment, honestly.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

I think Tom Doak's remark is pretty accurate.

In order for the product to be a "true" restoration, that has to be the goal from the outset, rather than an interpretive restoration through the eyes of the architect.

[Justin Ryan]

The architect in question here has been subject to intense past criticism of his work on established courses (but not his new courses), and in time it would be interesting to see what you make of the same work, assuming you ever make the visit to Melbourne. Some of the work, in particular that at Kingswood, is just appalling and now thankfully is being fixed up to a respectable standard.

Shane, to be fair to Mr Cashmore Kingswood was already a dogs breakfast before he got there.

There has also been plenty of criticism of his new courses, and I would not really care if I never saw any of them again.

[Rich Goodale]

Golf courses are never "destroyed."  Like sand castles, they can always be rebuilt.

[Adam Clayman]

I have not read it all but this is a great thread. The insights into human nature through the attitudes expressed could only come about in the context of golf.  Jack frig'in Nicklaus must've been sipping from the kool-aid bucket since his recent designs are TRYING to do "that". As ignorant as we all are I'm glad to see its more pervasive and not limited to just golfers.

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