[Carl Rogers]

I am confused.  Please help me understand.  I have not played enough courses or enough variety of courses to get my hands around this.

Are firm and fast through the green areas a function of the variety of grass? soil condtions? amount of water? fertilization? temperature? humidity?

What combinations of conditions create or discourage fast & firm?

[Ben Sims]

Carl,

I'm no agronomist.  But seeing as how I am trying to start my Masters in Soil Science with a turf emphasis, I'll take a stab.  Hopefully I'll see if my knowledge is any good or not.

I would say that firm and fast is a function of these variables in order of importance

1)Soil
2) Climate (temp and wind and water)
3) Turfgrass Cultivar

Now some will argue that the grass is the most important variable.  That is, fescue and other cool grasses (bentgrasses to an extent) promote fast playing conditions due to the makeup and shape of their blade. Fescue in particular is noted for it's needle-like structure and in turn imparts less friction on the ball. To go deeper, various fescue's grow differently.  A common practice for upper tier "firm and fast" courses--such as Ballyneal or Bandon Trails--is to integrate 3-5 different types of fescue to make sure there is good coverage in shade, slopes, greens, next to bunkers, etc. 

I will argue that the soil is the biggest variable.  Sand is the primary base for most--if not all--courses noted for their firm and fast conditions.  Sand is omnipresent on the links of Scotland and Ireland, on Long Island, some parts of the the coasts of Lake Michigan, in the sand hills of North Carolina, in the sand hills and chop hills of the high midwest, and on the Pacific Coast.  See a theme there?  Yeah, sand gives an architect and superintendent many varied and exciting option for playing conditions.  I would say that the biggest reason for this is 1) I think grass inherently grows well in sand based soil 2) The drainage is superb.

Climate is very important too.  The grasses most typically associated with firm and fast conditions thrive in the cool to colder climates.  This isn't to say that you can't find firm and fast outside of these conditions.  But I have never heard of a bermuda fairway roling out the way a fescue fairway does.

[Chris Tritabaugh]

The most important factors to fast and firm conditions are the management of water, fertility and the use of cultural practices. Manage and/or use  all three of these three things properly and any type of turfgrass or soil condition can be managed firm and fast. Climate helps, sand helps but they are not the be all, end all of firm and fast conditions. 

[Dan Herrmann]

Carl,
My club is in SE Pennsylvania.  The fairways are soil based with rocks and probably clay underneath.  If it rains a lot, it's soft and slow.  But our Head Greenkeeper has the course set up so that it'll be firm and fast within a few dry days.

Get .25 inches, and it'll be nice and dry the next day.  And he's not afraid of not having wall-to-wall green.

How?  Dethatching, aeration, and smart water usage.  He could even stimp the fairways, they're so good now.

[Anthony Gray]

  Carl,

  Thank you for asking this question....... I was completely amazed at how Rustic Canyon played like Scotland. I assumed it was because of the sandy soil. I am eager to hear from the supers on this one.

  Thanks,

  Anthony

[Joe Hancock]

The most important factors to fast and firm conditions are the management of water, fertility and the use of cultural practices. Manage and/or use  all three of these three things properly and any type of turfgrass or soil condition can be managed firm and fast. Climate helps, sand helps but they are not the be all, end all of firm and fast conditions. 

This is pretty good, I'd say. Water is the top management issue to firm and fast. One of the things that gets little discussion...and likely because it isn't well understood or researched(including myself!)...is the affect of the grass plant structure itself on the firmness of the playing surface.

A grass plant that is maintained with frequent, plentiful irrigation and nitrogen will be a lush plant...that is, a succulent, moisture laden plant. A grass plant the is fertilized and irrigated infrequently, but enough to sustain life(a changing issue as the plant adapts) the plant will take on a more "woody" structure.....from the roots to the crown to the leaf. It will increase the firmness of the playing surface. In my mind, it's more than just the moisture level in the dirt, it's about the amount of moisture in the entire system.

Then there's that thatch issue.....

Good question with varying answers based on the things listed by others...soils, climate, turf type, etc.

Joe

[Sean_A]

While I think water is an issue, I can understand supers not wanting to take chances with their courses when their jobs depend on it and there is no particular push from memberships to cut back dramatically. 

Another issue which doesn't get talked about much is types of grasses used.  I think much of the time inappropriate grasses are planted which require more effort and money to keep alive in the hot summer months than if the natural grass for the area were used.  I spose this is part of movement to make greens better and faster, but at a very high price. 

However, I think the biggest hurdle to firm and fast is golfers.  No matter which grasses are used, nearly every course could improve on its watering and feeding efficiency if golfers would be more willing to accept less than green and inconsistent conditions from day to day.  I believe there is a significant trend toward lean and mean, but it still has a long way to go.

Ciao

[Craig Sweet]

I think Sean hit the nail on the head...it's the golfers that determine how fast, how firm.  For example, at my club firm and fast are nasty words. Green, lush, soft is what the members want....oh they want the greens to be rolling at 11-12....even though most are high handicappers...but they want the greens soft to handle their line drive 5 irons from 125 yards.

Personally, I think firm and fast would be better suited to their game...most are not long off the tee and most have no choice but to play a "ground game"....

[Joe Hancock]

Craig,

That's the ol' tail wagging the dog.....and unfortunately there's too much truth to it.

Joe

[David Druzisky]

There are a bunch of variables that go into it with many being already brought up here.  Also, it is not a condition you can have all the time nor is it something that you can easily apply consistency to.  In fact it should vary as it did/does naturally with getting a measure of how firm or not firm the playing conditions were day to day or even time of day.  It is part of the game.  So, in short, I would say it is not a black and white issue.

I will throw in another variable example of a specific issue at an existing club that dictates this condition.  It is almost touched on above but irrigation frequency and timing has much impact on being able to provide those conditions.  While modern irrigation systems have the control and most often the ability to distribute water on the course over a shortened window of time, not all do.   Therefore on courses that can water all green areas in say 2 hours of time while watering a good percentage of the rest of the course at the same time the ability to provide fast and firmer conditions will be much greater than a system that can not.  Some creative and quality programming - and I would bet many need it - may go a long way in helping matters but numbers are numbers and sometimes there isn't anything you can do.

Now, think of all the other variables that factor in to that one aspect.  Soil type, grass type, climate slope percentages etc and you can see why golf course superintedents are some of the most underappreciated professional managers alive.   If at the end of the day we can get the majority of golfers thinking that erring towards fast and firm is better than erring towards wet and lush we will have at least made great progress.

[mike_beene]

Dallas in the winter is as firm and fast as it gets:dormant 419 fairways and firm bent that is frictionless(if thats a word).We pay for it with soft July and August greens and Bermuda rough that keeps the ball manufacturers happy.

[Bradley Anderson]

The photo below illustrates how thatch laden some golf courses are. This is the kind of shit that builds up under the turf that you are playing on when it is over fertilized and over watered for so many years. So we all need to be sympathetic to our superintendents who have inherited these sins from the past.

Water does not move laterally or upwards through thatch. It only can move downwards by gravitational pull. In soils that are not covered by excessive thatch, the water may move any direction, sideways and even upwards, from a point of high concentration to the areas of low concentration, and that kind of environment allows your superintendent to dry things out without loosing turf. But if your superintendent has inherited this kind of thatch layer, he has no choice but to water frequently and generously until he removes that thatch layer, and that can take many years.

I used to be kind of cocky about how F&F my golf course was, but upon reflection, I was only able to keep my golf course that dry because the men who proceeded me in managing that turf did not over fertilize or over water. So I have learned not to be so proud or sanctimonious about how F&F my golf course is. May I say that I have also developed a genuine disdain for the guys who come on here and brag about their F&F conditions like it is all owing to their own ingenuity, without owning up to the fact that they couldn't provide those conditions if it wasn't for years and years of sound management before they took the reins.

If you let this  kind of thatch dry out, your are screwed, because thatch, like peat, repels water after it is dry. And once that happens, you break the budget rewetting it.

[Scott Furlong]

Bradley,

Well said and spot on. 

I’ll add one thing.  If you want consistent firm and fast conditions, play on frozen turf.  I also guarantee you will never hit it fat. 

[Josh Stevens]

I played at Cinque Ports a few days ago and I think there is this Buda thing there in a few days.  It was concrete.  The fairways had almost no grass, the the turf was rock hard.  Drives  hit the deck and bounced 10 feet in the air and then ran 50yards.

The balls sit hard against the dirt rather than sitting up on grass, so you have to very concsicously hit down hard to carve out a big divot and impart a bit of spin.  A very different game to what you expect from the normal US course - it was simply not possible to land a ball on the green and expect it to hold, everything  had to be pitched 20 or 30 yards short and run up.

[Scott Warren]

Josh,

I'm not sure I'd agree "the fairways had almost no grass". Do you mean they were mown tight? The playing surface was very good, firm and dry, as always. I wouldn't want your comment being misconstrued as the ball is sitting on bare dirt, where there should be grass.

As far as approaching the greens, I recall my iron shots releasing the usual 5-7m unless played off a slope. And I'm no digger, my divots are generally no bigger than a five quid note. I'm not sure it was as "concrete" as you recall.

What say you other guys who were at Deal last weekend?

[Scott Warren]

Mark Chaplin's not near a computer for the weekend, but saw this thread without enough time to post a reply. He emailed me and asked me to post the below on his behalf.
__________________________________________

Josh - sorry Royal Cinque Ports did not live up to your expectations. I was knocked out at the 20th in the semi final of a five round Bank Holiday member event last weekend and with a practise round can speak quite accurately on the condition of the course. Apart from the flat area short of the green on 16th and part of the 18th fairway, on no part of the course do we find, expect or desire grassy lies. Links golf should be played from tight lies on free running fairways, from my knowledge and that of watching many fine players play links golf control and spin from tight lies is achieved by pinching the ball from the turf, "carving big divots" is not the usual way of achieving spin on a links course.

My experience over the weekend was a shot in with roughly a six iron or less would check and stop within 10 paces. I hit several good pitches that checked on the second bounce stopping within 4 or 5 paces. One would not expect to stop a long iron on a sixpence on a decent links course, running a ball in is expected and the greens on the longer holes are designed to play a running shot to. The only hole requiring a proper carry would be the 1st from a poor drive, here the pin was some 30 paces onto the green tucked behind a nice ridge.

The Buda is in September and I'm sure 99% of the participants hope for a dry summer and similar conditions to those you experienced. For many Americans the entire reason to play links golf is because it's "a very different game to what you expect from the normal US course".  I hope we can welcome you back to Deal in the not too distant future.

[Jon Wiggett]

I played at Cinque Ports a few days ago and I think there is this Buda thing there in a few days.  It was concrete.  The fairways had almost no grass, the the turf was rock hard.  Drives  hit the deck and bounced 10 feet in the air and then ran 50yards.

The balls sit hard against the dirt rather than sitting up on grass, so you have to very concsicously hit down hard to carve out a big divot and impart a bit of spin.  A very different game to what you expect from the normal US course - it was simply not possible to land a ball on the green and expect it to hold, everything  had to be pitched 20 or 30 yards short and run up.

Josh,

If you don't know how to play in links conditions it can be very frustrating but if you understand how to take on the challenge it is a real blast and the best way to play the game IMHO. I would recomend taking a lesson with one of the club's professionals and learning how to cope with the conditions you describe.

[Adam Clayman]

Drainage X 3

A Course that drains well will be firmer faster.
 

[Josh Stevens]

Mark Chaplin's not near a computer for the weekend, but saw this thread without enough time to post a reply. He emailed me and asked me to post the below on his behalf.
__________________________________________

Josh - sorry Royal Cinque Ports did not live up to your expectations. I was knocked out at the 20th in the semi final of a five round Bank Holiday member event last weekend and with a practise round can speak quite accurately on the condition of the course. Apart from the flat area short of the green on 16th and part of the 18th fairway, on no part of the course do we find, expect or desire grassy lies. Links golf should be played from tight lies on free running fairways, from my knowledge and that of watching many fine players play links golf control and spin from tight lies is achieved by pinching the ball from the turf, "carving big divots" is not the usual way of achieving spin on a links course.

My experience over the weekend was a shot in with roughly a six iron or less would check and stop within 10 paces. I hit several good pitches that checked on the second bounce stopping within 4 or 5 paces. One would not expect to stop a long iron on a sixpence on a decent links course, running a ball in is expected and the greens on the longer holes are designed to play a running shot to. The only hole requiring a proper carry would be the 1st from a poor drive, here the pin was some 30 paces onto the green tucked behind a nice ridge.

The Buda is in September and I'm sure 99% of the participants hope for a dry summer and similar conditions to those you experienced. For many Americans the entire reason to play links golf is because it's "a very different game to what you expect from the normal US course".  I hope we can welcome you back to Deal in the not too distant future.

You misunderstand me - hard and fast with no grass was meant as a compliment, i loved it.  It is a quesiton of the difference between turf and grass, they are not the same. It was mown very tight and in many places was bare and hard as it i had not rained for a while, and so there was no nicee plump layer of grass.  But the underlying turf is that nice crisp stuff you can really get ino

[Alister Matheson]

This is my kind of Firm and Fast 

[Alister Matheson]

TRY again 

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