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Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
In SoCal there have been some incredible attempts at destroying wonderful courses.  I am interested how these so callled architects  can be dealt with so that they never get another golf course archtecture job.  With the current state of our legal system, they probably would sue and hit the lottery.  However, there must be a way to get the word out so that they can no longer damage any future course.  La Cumbre  and Rancho Santa Fe are notable examples of such destructive work.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Robert, I don't know much about Rancho Santa Fe, but I don't think you could attribute all the work done since Thomas' original design of La Cumbre to one single golf course architect.  The course was apparently extensively rerouted to fit in more homes, an island green  :o  was built as an alternate to the incredible original 3rd, an entire hillside collapsed destroying the original 17th hole, and the club filled in a barranca to destroy the original 16th hole.

How do you blackball one GCA over that pattern of destruction over the decades?

Ironically, the members I know love the place, kikuyu grass and all.

Did I mention they let the kikuyu run wild there?  ??? ::)

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Is Tony Cashmore a member here?

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Good question, and it's certainly not a new question. A number of us have been writing for years (decades, in fact) precisely to honor and venerate the courses that are being altered. Owners have played a huge part in the process, and so have various boards, green chairmen, and yes, architects as well. In such cases, there are differing judgments and tastes. And also there's the matter of balancing out the sense of outrage and violation with a certain responsibility for being fair and sticking to the facts. Opinions in golf course architecture are among the strongest I know of in any sport, and there's a fine line, maybe a minefield or penumbral state, between expressing one's feelings and opinions and slandering someone as an incompetent wretch.

All of us who write about this and who care for these issues feel pained when witnessing truly awful work. All I can say is that in the last 25 years standards have changed for the better; more people who are better informed are involved; and there's been a widespread sense of taking care to study more carefully and to honor and recapture the past. And yes, it's really sad to see what passed for golf course architecture by some very big names in the field.

Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
I agree that both La Cumbre and RSF were not destroyed by a single architect.  However, they both had work done by so called architects who should never get a job.  One so called architect was let go from his job as a course superintendant because he terribly maintained a place in SoCal and now he calls himself an architect.  I played the course secveral times that this guy use to maintain and you would have thought SoCal had recieved torrential rains because the greens were always mushy disasters--perhaps the worst greens in SoCal.  And the bunkers were poorly maintained as well.

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0


 
Ironically, the members I know love the place, kikuyu grass and all.

 


Bill, ignorance is bliss. ;D



Seriously, I would submit that if the members could play La Cumbre then vs now, I would be willing to bet that the former would win out. But that's all hypothetical and we'll never know the answer to that.


There have been a few at RSFGC, and it's hard to asses who did the most damage there, but Fleming had NO business touching a classic gem like that. He absolutely had no experience in that area and obviously knew butkiss about Behr. I can't believe I'm saying this, but they would've been better off w/ Fabio doing the work. Let's not forget the work was done, from what I heard, at the USGA behest.




I feel your frustration, Robert. When I saw the work done I was disappointed. We have so few classical gems in SD that it's a shame that the ones we do have are not handled with the care they deserve. The same can be said for La Jolla CC.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Robert:

You are treading close to being accused of slander in your remarks above.  Anybody can be a golf course architect, if they can get themselves hired.  That's the business.

As for "destroying" golf courses, there are a lot of courses which wouldn't be missed.  I've always thought that it would just be important to come up with a list of courses which are considered historic in nature, and try to persuade those clubs to be more sensitive.  Presumably, La Cumbre would have been on Thomas' list because of its prominence in his book ... even though I think they had lost a couple of those holes before 1950.

P.S.  I don't think the Donald Ross Society or the Tillinghast Society or others are the proper sources for a list such as mentioned above.  They are prone to have members who want to be power brokers who make deals for "excellent restoration architects," and all that does is ensure that MORE construction work gets done.  There are a few Donald Ross courses which have now been restored THREE DIFFERENT TIMES by three different restorers.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2009, 09:15:02 PM by Tom_Doak »

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
I've thought for years now that the ASGCA should police themselves in some fashion???  It's way too subjective and any architect can cry "that's what the owner wanted" or "it was in the plans" and get away with murder.

Personally I think the ASGCA should have specialities and lump the architects into categories.   Restoration architects should be identified and certified.   Currently you need to have 5 golf courses to your name and 3 have to be in the last 5 years to be a member of the ASGCA.  They should have this type of requirement to be a "Classical restoration expert".

Ian Andrew

Joel,

As much as I would love the ASGCA to play a role - it's not going to happen.

The ASGCA is an association (of bad jackets) and not a “regulating body.” So any suggestion that they should play a role is a waste of time. Plus there are many prominent architects not in the ASGCA, so any rules would not apply across the board anyway.

The other end of this is architects are business people too - and none of us want limitations on what we do. Who would?

I think it's up to the clubs. They need to spend more time researching and interviewing before they hire. Then actively question and challenge their architect before making big decisions. That said, I think that is going on a lot more now.

But when we get right down to it - the membership/owners have the right to do what they want to their course. And as much as that pains me to watch a pirate screw up another Thompson course - it's there money and their decision to make.

Roger Wolfe

  • Karma: +0/-0
This is going to get ugly...

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Is Tony Cashmore a member here?

Which courses are you referring to Scott?

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ian:

I agree it's a pipe dream but there is nobody else remotely close to qualifying. 

The ASGCA does have some type of committee for discipline since I know a member who was brought up on some charge of trying to steal a project or talked bad about another member.  He was found not guilty but the point is they have some say on how members should behave.  The type of behavior that I have witnessed recently and the one discussed above could have been avoided if the ASGCA would certify qualified architects for historical restorations.

I don't think it's such a bad idea.   Not all stock brokers are financial planners or trade commodities.  Even if you have drivers license it doesn't qualify you to drive a bus or a truck.  A pilot of a Cessna can't fly a 747.  You get the idea?   

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Joel:

Every ASGCA architect would be certified under that plan, and every non-ASGCA architect would be de-certified.  That's just the way the Society works.

The non-ASGCA guys include a large number of the guys who have specialized in restoration -- and who have specialized in restoration in part because the ASGCA intimates those guys are not qualified to design a new course.  Among the architects who aren't in the ASGCA -- Ron Forse, Ron Prichard, Mike Young, Mike DeVries, Bruce Hepner, Jim Urbina, and myself (although I'm reliably told I would be able to join the Society now if I tried).

Roger Wolfe

  • Karma: +0/-0

Anybody can be a golf course architect, if they can get themselves hired.  That's the business.


Very true... the ASGCA can only "monitor golf course architects" if owners and clubs decide only to hire an ASGCA accredited architect.  This has come to fruition for many "golf organizations" such as the PGA, GCSAA and CMAA.  Not sure if its in the cards for the ASGCA.

Roger Wolfe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Quote from: Tom_Doak link=topic=39122.msg818185#msg818185
  Among the architects who aren't in the ASGCA -- Ron Forse, Ron Prichard, Mike Young, Mike DeVries, Bruce Hepner, Jim Urbina, and myself (although I'm reliably told I would be able to join the Society now if I tried).

Don't forget the talented and very busy Kris Spence.

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Quote from: Tom_Doak link=topic=39122.msg818185#msg818185
  Among the architects who aren't in the ASGCA -- Ron Forse, Ron Prichard, Mike Young, Mike DeVries, Bruce Hepner, Jim Urbina, and myself (although I'm reliably told I would be able to join the Society now if I tried).

Don't forget the talented and very busy Kris Spence.

All of these mentioned people have their own reasons for not joining the ASGCA.  What's ironic is everyone mentioned is a restoration specialist and has a huge resume of courses restored which would qualify them if they where a member of the ASGCA.

What I am saying is the ASGCA has no system for evaluating such work.  All architects are not equal.  I'm not going to hire the architect who designed my house to build a 50 story office building.

It should be the same with golf course architects.   It allows boards, committees and members or even municipal planners a chance to look at an architects portfolio with certifications.   

Phil_the_Author

It might be interesting to note that among the “architects” who have examined some of the courses named and made recommendations for changes was Tilly. He did this both during his PGA Course Consultation Tour and before it. For those of you who are familiar with these courses, I would love to know how much of his recommendations were carried through.

Tilly examined La Cumbre on 2/26/1936. He recommended the following be done:
1-   A new teeing-ground for the 2nd hole adding “needed yardage.”
2-   A new green site for the 5th hole “on a rise beyond the present” location.
3-   A new bunkering plan for the 11th green “for which I made a sketch.” (I strongly suggest that if anyone is a member or knows someone who is one that they make a concerted effort to locate this in their files. It would be quite valuable and historically important.)
4-   Complete redesign of the 13th hole. “This last presented quite a perplexing problem for the original lay-out had worked the course into a jam at this point. However I finally found the solution with a teeing-ground at an entirely different spot than at present and an entirely new green, some 60 yards beyond the old one. After all, it worked out beautifully.”

Tilly examined Rancho Santa Fe on 12/30/1936. This was a most interesting visit and report as you will see, and I think quite germane to this discussion. In his report, Tilly wrote:
      “I already was familiar with this course, for I went over it two years ago when I was editor of Golf Illustrated. At that time I rated the Rancho Santa Fe as one of the potentially great courses of California. I have reason to change this opinion. The turf on both fairway and green is in better condition than when I saw it first when it was about five years old.
      “However they have started in recently to make a few blunders, as indicated today. The situation is this; unfortunately the professional does not have charge of the maintenance of the course in this instance and instead he has enjoyed but small opportunity to advice. The development of the course in its entirety is wholly in the hand of a superintendent, who evidently is not fully acquainted with modern golf course ideas. As a consequence he has introduced new traps on the 6th 12th and 18th holes, which are not only badly conceived, crudely contrived (particularly in the last two instances) but entirely out of harmony with the original fine contours of these holes.

Tom, I completely agree with your statement, “I've always thought that it would just be important to come up with a list of courses which are considered historic in nature, and try to persuade those clubs to be more sensitive…”

Unfortunately I must take strong exception to your view that you “don't think the Donald Ross Society or the Tillinghast Society or others are the proper sources for a list such as mentioned above.  They are prone to have members who want to be power brokers who make deals for "excellent restoration architects," and all that does is ensure that MORE construction work gets done.  There are a few Donald Ross courses which have now been restored THREE DIFFERENT TIMES by three different restorers…”

I cannot speak for the Donald Ross Society and the advice they give to both architects and clubs when asked for advice, but I can most definitely state there are NO “Power Brokers” seeking to “make deals for excellent restoration architects” in the Tillinghast Association.

I can do this because for the last few years the extreme majority of requests for aid from Tillinghast clubs, whether it be one of historical research, aid in locating an architect or, as in the case of one course that is fighting to keep their doors open yet desperately needs advice on how to upgrade the course in-house, being asked to give some bootstrap architectural advice, has been directed to me.

The irony of your placing the Tillinghast Association in this category is that in the last two years I have actually given the name of a firm that has chosen to do very few restorations, and is headed by Mr. Tom Doak.

It is BECAUSE of the perception that you mentioned above that we try to go out of our way to neither encourage clubs to use specific architects nor ever speak poorly of someone’s work unless very specific circumstances dictate it.

There have been a number of circumstances where Tillinghast clubs have decided to do restoration/renovation work and asked for help in researching the features that Tilly actually designed into their course. In these cases we share the same information with ALL architects involved in bidding the work as well as with the club. If it is helpful, wonderful; if not, all are free to ignore it. In NO CASE is favoritism shown.

I’d like to ask you to reconsider your viewpoint on this as far as the Tillinghast Association is concerned.

That said, and for the purpose of full disclosure, last year I founded a company named Golden Age Research. Through this company I provide specific research services for clubs and architects for a variety of reasons including aid in identifying course features that should be given consideration for either restoration or removal whether it be a Tillinghast course or the work of another architect.

This business is COMPLETELY separate from what I do for the Tillinghast Association and, in fact, any and all requests for research through the Tillinghast Association that I work on, is done completely and totally free of any charge.

Tom, although, as I stated, I take "strong exception" to your view on this, I do recognize that it is your view and can only hope that you give us an opportunity to change it.

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0

Joel - How would I or anyone become a restoration architect?


Please don't forget about all the quack new courses too.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

RMD,

I've always held to the theory that "clubs" destroy their own golf courses and that the architects involved are just the instrument of the club, doing the club's bidding.

I always liked Rancho Sante Fe, so I'm disappointed to hear that it's been disfigured.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Like Phillip and the Tilly society, I would appreciate people who know nothing of ASGCA not to put out misinformation.

BTW, ASGCA DOES NOT intimate what any non member can do. ASGCA knows and understands that there are some very fine gca's out there who are not members and may never be, in some cases because they focus on restorations.

It is simply our policy to require some new course work as part of the portfolio of an applicant.  If those gents haven't done two new courses among their work then they don't meet our qualification standards.  Its not unreasonable to expect some demonstration of routing skill for an applicant to a professional golf course architects society, is it?

That and (perhaps refined) versions of the membership rules that are in place now date back to my term as membership chairman.  If you want to blame anyone for those gca's not being in ASGCA, blame me.  Twice over 20 years, I put together surveys of the membership concerning our minimum membership standards.  Twice, I had to report that the overwhelming sentiment of the members was that routing is part and parcel to the qualifications of a gca.  

Believe me, we have discussed all of this.  

Not speaking for ASGCA right now, but personally, I believe that this group of gca afficiandos might be as little qualified to select a gca for a particular project as any group alive.  I say that because I look at the restoration photos posted here and routinely see the critiques based on who does it more than what the work looks like.

A case in point would be CC 's 1994 renovation of Rivera vs the current Fazio redos.  You could look at old photos of Riv and see the differences between the original work and both gca's but CC would get a great grade, and Faz gets an F from this group.  

And, for anyone evaluating a gca, would there be a bias in reverse - just as ASGCA is seen as discriminatory because its policies favor new course work, which is seen to "intimate" this or that, who and what is to say that a gca who has never done a Tilly restoration couldn't do it well?  Case in point is Brackenridge Park, done and apparently done well by my former associate John Colligan and his assistant Trey Kemp, who posts here.

Who is to say that this job should have gone to someone recommended by the Tillie Society, some other NE guy, or this discussion group?  Do you just assume that it would have been done better by your favorite gca?

You guys are so full of yourselves in believing that you know what is best for everyone that its just plain silly.

Sorry for the rant....but there is just no way on Gods Green Earth that you, ASGCA or anyone else should be empowered to create a limited list, a certification, or whatever for restoration work.  To the degree that consciousness has been raised over 30 years time, the Ross and Tillie and other societies and authors have done a good job.  To carry their role of selecting gca's any further would have its own consequences, I am sure.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ryan Farrow

Pat, I'll second that. If you want to hammer architects at least do it on their original designs,  and do this only after you find out what the owner wanted.

Its easy to call out the clubs who actually pursued "restoration" work, and good for them. But not all do and not all clubs want that. Its really not that hard to understand. If a club wishes to downgrade in the eyes of golf club atlas, then they will suffer the consequences and be relentlessly grilled here. I say spare the architect... to an extent.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Is Tony Cashmore a member here?

Which courses are you referring to Scott?
Hi Chris,

Missed this till just now.

Commonweath and Kingswood, specifically, and the hysteria over Portsea.

Do you disagree about Tony's non-greenfields work?

cheers,
Scott

Kyle Harris

Jeff,

How does the ASGCA define "routing skill?"

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0

I've always held to the theory that "clubs" destroy their own golf courses and that the architects involved are just the instrument of the club, doing the club's bidding.


A few years ago I was talking with Jack Nicklaus about some course he did and some features.  He said "he was only doing what the owner wanted".  I said, "you're Jack frigin Nicklaus and you can do what ever you want".  How is some owner going to tell the greatest golfer in history what is right or wrong?  He said it wasn't true.  Now I'm sure there are a few owners that are so hard headed or ego minded that they may try and push around Jack Nicklaus but I'm of the opinion architects have tremendous power based mostly on their knowledge and experience and can easily sway some unsuspecting green committee or board.   

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jeff,

How does the ASGCA define "routing skill?"

We know it when we see it.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

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