[Patrick_Mucci]

Especially on par 3's ?

In looking at the thread picturing a neat looking Biarritz, Redan and Short, don't the playing options become more one dimensional as the elevation of the tee above the green increases ?

Put another way, as the hole reveals itself more, visually, don't the playing options get reduced ?

Aren't playing options maximized when the green and tee are at or about equal elevations ?

[Kevin Pallier]

Patrick

I can't say I necessarily agree with you. I have a downhill P3 of about 150 yards at my home course next to the ocean and it's "playability" is increased because of the strength and direction of winds that come into play.

One can play high shots using the wind or resort to trying to punch low shots into it - the club and shot selections vary greatly depending on the golfer.

[TEPaul]

"Elevated tees - Don't they reduce the playing options ?"

What?


"Especially on par 3's ?"

What??

"In looking at the thread picturing a neat looking Biarritz, Redan and Short, don't the playing options become more one dimensional as the elevation of the tee above the green increases ?"

What???

"Put another way, as the hole reveals itself more, visually, don't the playing options get reduced ?"

What?

"Aren't playing options maximized when the green and tee are at or about equal elevations ?"

What??



Patrick:

Let me ask you something. Did you drop your wallet----I mean you mind, in an airport somewhere?

[TEPaul]

"Patrick
I can't say I necessarily agree with you."



Kevin Pallier:

Believe me, THAT may turn out to be the most incisive remark you will ever make on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com!!!!

[Patrick_Mucci]

I can't say I necessarily agree with you. I have a downhill P3 of about 150 yards at my home course next to the ocean and it's "playability" is increased because of the strength and direction of winds that come into play.

What does the strength and direction of the wind have to do with the element of playability that's related to the disparity in elevation ?

You're confusing the influence of the wind with the inherent nature of the trajectory of shots between an elevated tee and lower green.

One can play high shots using the wind or resort to trying to punch low shots into it -

From a tee elevated above a green how does one punch a low shot into a green ?

Both shots are high shots with one merely being higher than the other ?

How does one play a running shot short of the green from an elevated  tee, especially if the ground is soft due to abundant moisture ?

the club and shot selections vary greatly depending on the golfer.


If there's no wind, how great is the variance in club and shot selection ?

[TEPaul]

God help us!

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Perhaps you could explain Kevin Pallier's remarks by relating them to the 14th hole at Pine Valley.

I'd like to know about the great variety in available shots on that hole, in particular, the punch shot that keeps the ball low, especially when the wind is in your face.

After # 14 perhaps you can tell us about the variety found in the play of # 3 as well 

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

I'm not Ken Pallier so it's not me you should ask to explain his remarks; it's him.


Sure, I'd be glad to explain PV's #14 or #3, no wind or any kind of wind, I've seen it all there as I've played both hundreds of time over the years including in all kinds of winds. What do you want to know?

Does this have something to do with your suggestion that to get the contour on #18 green right and the way Crump may've intended it they should build an entirely new hole first on the Short Course just to experiment with that relatively simple green contour??     

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick:

I'm not Ken Pallier so it's not me you should ask to explain his remarks; it's him.


Sure, I'd be glad to explain PV's #14 or #3, no wind or any kind of wind, I've seen it all there as I've played both hundreds of time over the years including in all kinds of winds. What do you want to know?

I want to know of the myriad number of playing options Kevin alludes to,  OR, is it purely aerial, from tee to green ? 

Does this have something to do with your suggestion that to get the contour on #18 green right and the way Crump may've intended it they should build an entirely new hole first on the Short Course just to experiment with that relatively simple green contour??     

They don't have to build a NEW first hole, it could be the 11th hole, I'm flexible.

[TEPaul]

"I want to know of the myriad number of playing options Kevin alludes to,  OR, is it purely aerial, from tee to green ?"


Is it purely aerial from tee to green on PV's #3 and #14??

Well, let me put it to you this way Patrick---I have played those holes in all kinds of conditions and winds for decades but not once have I intentionally tried to run the ball along the ground on #3, or through bushes, water and beach on #14.

Does that answer some of your question, at least? If so, yes, it's pretty much all aerial somehow from tee to green on PV's #3 and #14. 

There are some trees close along the left side of #14 green but I have yet to try to riccochet my tee shot off one of them and onto the green.

Have you? Perhaps you have---I suspect you may be far more creatively "strategic" than me! Actually, I'm quite sure you are. I just got that IM from you and that shot you described coming from you does not surprise me at all. You've got some kind of imagination, that's for sure and you DO have some incidences and examples to back it up.

[Brian Phillips]

Pat,

I think that is superb question (sorry Tom Paul) and I agree with you.  By having the tee elevated it is very difficult if impossible to hit the low running shot.  Whereas playing from a tee at ground height the player himself can choose to hit the tee shot high to use the wind or low under the wind.

It is a discussion I have often with Graeme when we are on site. I like putting tees elevated to help the high handicap player get the ball away but he feels that this in fact makes the shot more difficult as the ball can be grabbed by the wind and throw it off course which ids difficult for the high handicap player to adjust for.  He is correct on a windy site and we do think and discuss it often especially if we are worried about the local wind.

So yes I agree with you.

[Kevin Pallier]

What does the strength and direction of the wind have to do with the element of playability that's related to the disparity in elevation ?

You're confusing the influence of the wind with the inherent nature of the trajectory of shots between an elevated tee and lower green.

Just because there's a disparity in elevation doesn't mean playability is reduced. I've got loads more choices re: using the natural terrain and running a bump and run shot down the hill onto the green. How far down the hill do a want to land it ? half-way ? three-quarters ? or pretty much all the way ? How often would the thought enter you mind on on a flat P3 ?

One can play high shots using the wind or resort to trying to punch low shots into it

From a tee elevated above a green how does one punch a low shot into a green ?

Both shots are high shots with one merely being higher than the other ?

No Patrick - one is lower than the other therefore the other is higher.

Partrick

Were you an auditor in a previous life ?


TePaul

It's like arguing with your wife - you never win 

[Brian Phillips]

Kevin,

If you hit a punch shot that only rises 10 metres above the tee it will only be 10 metres above the tee.  If that tee is 30 metres above the fairway then that shot is suddenly 40 metres above the fairway.  If the tee is on ground level that shot is only 10 or 11 metres above the fairway.  That is a big difference.

With the low tee you have an option that you do not have on a high tee.  You can still hit a very high shot off the low tee but you cannot hit a low shot off the high tee.

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