[Jonathan Cummings]

Do I understand correctly that we have lost 3 Doak courses in the last few months (Beechtree, Apache Stronghold and now High Point)  That's roughly 10% of Tom's portfolio.

JC

[Garland Bayley]

What's the status of St. Andrews Beach?
Is it 4?
How do you count Wicked Pony in this count?

[Pete_Pittock]

Jonathan,
The message on their website says they are not opening for this 2009 golf season. I assume the economics of letting a golf course lay fallow for a year outweigh the payroll and daily maintenance costs for a year of operation and we could see a re-opening in later years.

[RJ_Daley]

As I understand it, they actually had livestock grazing on ANGC for a time during WWII. 

We had a new course in about 1999 near here go broke and not open for more than a season.  The bank kept the super and he maintained the whole thing on minimal maintenance, not making apps, just cutting two heights of about 1.5" FWs with tractor and gang mower and about 3/4 greens with triplex.  I went out and batted the ball around on that sort of conditions.  It was amusing... The course reopened and the conditions were brought around nicely within that new open year.

[Mark_F]

What's the status of St. Andrews Beach?
Is it 4?

The financiers are proving to be as big a bunch of dickheads as the original directors, which is quite some feat.

Count it as four down.

[Tom_Doak]

Jonathan -

I may put together a group to buy or lease High Pointe, provided they are willing to deal for a reasonable price.  But it may have to sit for a year before they see the reality of its present market value.

[TEPaul]

Just to show you some of the odd things that happen with golf courses in dire times, Pine Valley planted a Victory Garden on their 12th fairway in WW1 and at my own course, apparently around the same time, that quite odd and unpredictable peripatetic pro/greenkeeper, John Reid, actually planted wheat on the course including on the greens. 

But the worst thing that happened to GMGC in those dire times was the club manager's wife drank all the club's liquor and her husband sold the club cow and ran off with the proceeds!!

[Jonathan Cummings]

Like Turnberry (and I'm sure others) Congressional CC had the military train on their grounds during WWII.

Tom - hope all goes well at High Point.

JC

[Brent Carlson]

As sad as it is to see HP shut it down for a year, it would be very exciting to see Tom's group restore the course.  Hope it happens...

[Jonathan Cummings]

How about you other gca.com architects?  What percentage of your portfolio has recently shut down.  Is Doak's 4 closures (out of 25-30 courses) the norm or an outlyer?

JC

[Tim Bert]

Jonathan -

I may put together a group to buy or lease High Pointe, provided they are willing to deal for a reasonable price.  But it may have to sit for a year before they see the reality of its present market value.

Would love to see this happen!  Tom would your intent to be to restore firm and fast conditions?  Also, if you had an ownership stake would you make any dramatic changes having learned what you've learned as you've developed as an architect since the original design?  Finally, would you make changes to #18?

[Garland Bayley]

How about you other gca.com architects?  What percentage of your portfolio has recently shut down.  Is Doak's 4 closures (out of 25-30 courses) the norm or an outlyer?

JC

Care to enumerate them so we know how you got that number?

[David Stamm]

Billy Bell lost a huge portion of his portfolio within 15-20 years after they were built.


 

[Joel_Stewart]

But the worst thing that happened to GMGC in those dire times was the club manager's wife drank all the club's liquor and her husband sold the club cow and ran off with the proceeds!!

It happens time and time again.   Damn I hate it when that happens.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Care to enumerate them so we know how you got that number?

??

[Tom Dunne]

There's closed and there's NLE, though. At least a closed course has a chance of getting back on its feet under new ownership. Seems the only one of this bunch that is solidly in the NLE category at the moment is Beechtree, right?

[Garland Bayley]

Care to enumerate them so we know how you got that number?

??

What are the 25-30 courses Tom has done?
It looks to me like 25% of his international courses are closed and 25% of his public or resort courses are closed. Has he done so many privates that they overwhelm that and bring it down to your 10% number?

[David Neveux]

It would be a pity to see High Pointe go, not only because of the quality of golf there, but when I played a couple of years ago the price we paid for 36 was wonderfully reasonable.  It's refreshing to find a value in that area in whats otherwise a sea of overpriced (mainly) resort courses with very little interest.  It will be interesting to see if the rates fall this season here in Michigan given the state of the economy, especially here in this state.  

Back to the golf...so what about that 18th? ?  Tom I hope you pull it off, There are too many holes out there I would hate not to get another crack at.  All the best,

Nev

[Tim_Cronin]

But the worst thing that happened to GMGC in those dire times was the club manager's wife drank all the club's liquor and her husband sold the club cow and ran off with the proceeds!!

It happens time and time again.   Damn I hate it when that happens.

Better that than the manager running off with the cow, I suppose.

[James Bennett]

Valley Club of Montecito

The holes to the east of Sheffield Drive (a ka 3 thru 12).  July 1942 see the creation of an 'inside nine' through the addition of a green on the #18 fairway.  The Course Supt was terminated at the end of the year (less to look after apparently) and so the club survived with no debt and a reasonable cash balance.  Within a week of the end of the war in Europe, plans were prepared for the recovery of the holes across Sheffield Drive.  William Bell was retained as architect for the restoration, and the holes reopened by July 1946.  Cost of restoration was $16,000.  Mackenzie's plan was restored.

Many things do come back to life.  Keep the faith Mark Ferguson et all.

James B

[Tom_Doak]

Garland:

The 25-30 number is correct:

1 High Pointe
2 Legends (Heathland)
3 Wilderness Valley (Black Forest)
4 Stonewall (old)
5 Charlotte GL
6 Quail Crossing
7 Beechtree
8 Riverfront
9 Apache Stronghold
10 Lost Dunes
11 Atlantic City
12 The Village Club of Sands Point
13 Pacific Dunes
14 The Sheep Ranch
15 The Rawls Course
16 Stonewall (North)
17 Cape Kidnappers
18 Barnbougle Dunes
19 St. Andrews Beach (Gunnamatta)
20 Tumble Creek
21 Stone Eagle
22 Ballyneal
23 Sebonack -- the last ten were a pretty good run!
24 Rock Creek
25 The Renaissance Club
26 Wicked Pony (unfinished)
27 Common Ground
28 Bay of Dreams
29 Old Macdonald

[James Bennett]

Valley Club of Montecito

The holes to the east of Sheffield Drive (ie 3 thru 12) were closed during the US involvement in Europe in WW2.  July 1942 saw the creation of an 'inside nine' through the addition of a green on the #18 fairway.  The Course Supt was terminated at the end of the year (less to look after apparently) and so the club survived the war period with no debt and a reasonable cash balance.  Within a week of the end of the war in Europe, plans were prepared by the Club for the recovery of the holes across Sheffield Drive.  William Bell was retained as architect for the restoration, and the holes reopened by July 1946.  Cost of restoration was $16,000.  Mackenzie's plan was restored.

Many things do come back to life.  Keep the faith Mark Ferguson et all.

James B

[Paul Stephenson]

Just to show you some of the odd things that happen with golf courses in dire times, Pine Valley planted a Victory Garden on their 12th fairway in WW1 and at my own course, apparently around the same time, that quite odd and unpredictable peripatetic pro/greenkeeper, John Reid, actually planted wheat on the course including on the greens. 

But the worst thing that happened to GMGC in those dire times was the club manager's wife drank all the club's liquor and her husband sold the club cow and ran off with the proceeds!!

I don't think that they ever infringed on the golf course, but there are WW1 practice trenches that are still visible just SW of Carnoustie GC.

Link to Google Map:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=world+war+one+trenches&sll=56.486999,-2.732055&sspn=0.006386,0.016479&ie=UTF8&t=h&ll=56.485716,-2.735955&spn=0.001525,0.003026&z=18

You don't need to zoom out much to see just how close they were.

[Jim Nugent]

I have not heard or seen much about Wicked Pony.  Even though its status is uncertain, can anyone give feedback, pix, etc? 

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