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Damian

Re: Can old committees be held responsible
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2002, 10:09:26 PM »
I'm not sure what we are really going to gain by trying to pin blame on anybody, especially on an exercise as subjective as golf course architecture.

At some point, I think it needs to be accepted that people who are acting on behalf of others, whether elected by their peers, self elected or otherwise have to be trusted to be acting in the best interests of those they represent. This doen't mean you have to agree with them all the time; it just means that if they have that power, they should be given the freedom to exercise it, with an overarching control structure (e.g. projects of a given size put to a member vote).

I think most people usually do act in the best interests of those they represent. If something is viewed as being less than perfect and they decide to attempt "improvement", no matter how good the people who are implementing a proposed change are, there is ALWAYS the risk that the situation will be degraded, even if the people concerned actually manage to avoid making what could be view later as mistakes. The reality is that an assessment of the outcome can only be made in hindsight.

Of course we don't want a situation where the sins of the past are repeated, but how are parameters of acceptable performance in relation to the architecture of a golf course going to be set up in advance?  This is analogous to deciding what aspects of a painting will render it being viewed as "acceptable" before brush is applied to canvas!!

In all of this though it seems the assumption is that the original architectural elements of a golf course actually continue to have merit, now and into the future. Is this necessarily so in all cases? I would doubt it.

In addition, it needs to be recognised that golf courses evolve over time all by themselves, without specific human involvement. Are we going to hold someone accountable for this??

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Can old committees be held responsible
« Reply #26 on: May 30, 2002, 05:30:04 AM »
Ian Andrew,

By-laws don't affect green committees one iota.

I would agree with Tom MacWood that architects share a good deal of the responsibility for the disfiguring of a golf course even though he is misinformed about the resultant work at Hollywood.

I would blame architects who deviate from the original design intent, because they either furnish the idea to disfigure the golf course or re-inforce the idea, which emanated from the committee.

Ian, no one is looking to punish any one, but those that are part of the disfiguring process must be held accountable and prevented from continuing the process.

The only reason I don't remove myself from the Boards and committees I serve on at clubs is my concern for wholesale alterations to the golf course.  And, even serving, some projects take on a life of their own and result in damaging alterations to the golf course.  One does as best they can to prevent this from happening.  The fight is constant.

As I said earlier, show me the club that altered their golf course.......just one time.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can old committees be held responsible
« Reply #27 on: May 30, 2002, 06:57:47 AM »
Gib and Pat,

I think we all agree that many normally sane people have checked their intelligence at the front door of the club, and don't seem to bring the same business sense they have in the outside world to club management affairs.  

Believe me, I have seen it as an architect, in that most of my calls come from clubs that have done it at least once on their own, and on the cheap.  Every golden age architecture book begins with a chapter on greens chairmen problems, so I think the problem - or as I like to think of it, this particular quirk of the human condition :) - is and has been universal. Perhaps my take is that there are "some" examples and yours that "all but two" fall into undesireable categories are really not two far apart in actual numbers, just attitude.

My post was really aimed at extending Tom Paul's point, that how we are now as sure we are right in our approach, as our golfing forefathers!  In the same vein, people who are "sure" the stock market was different this time, and would keep going up are getting burned right now. I believe there were many good decidions made, given economics and trends at the times.  

Here's a related question to that line of thinking....Is pure restoration a fad, a trend, or a counter trend?  We won't know the answer for about 20 years.  Will some future greens committee laugh at any consultant or committee that called for restoration of bunkers 120 yards from the tee in the name of "original intent" when they no longer come into play and cost the club much denaro in some future economically stressed time?  I think we can bet on it! (Based on past history)

IMHO, it should be a trend for about 2% of the clubs out there, and most should adopt a "sympathetic restoration" which keeps the traditional look of the club, but solves the here and now problems.  

Another problem is documenting what was really there at the start.  I was at an old midwest club this week, and when we pulled out the old plans, we found that their traditional, small round greens weren't that way to start!  Multi lobe shapes, tiers and decks - which we associate with modern design were the rule, but they had slowly disappeared, perhaps not under the hand of an architect or committee, but just slowly over the years! As the greens shrunk, bunkers slowly went out of play and apparently were rebuilt, as they no longer came into play.  However, the club committees who built them changed some angles, failed to build with support, etc. - the type of problems you describe in that most of the additions are both our of character with the original, and in many cases, just plain bad architecture.

Who's to blame?  Did they dissappear for budget reasons, inattentive superintendents, or by committee mandate?  No one knew, and in many cases, they can't ever know to pin blame, even on a recent committee.

And what are the right answers?  I am surprised you are shocked at my post, because in essence, I am simply saying its harder to know the answer to that question than we think, and the more I do in architecture, the less sure I am that I know the right answers!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Can old committees be held responsible
« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2002, 11:55:31 AM »
Jeff,

I believe that there is a PRUDENT MAN STANDARD which can be applied to evaluate modifications to a golf course.

I also have a slightly different concept or definition relating to construction on a golf course.

Rather than use the terms "restoration", "true restoration" or "sympathetic restoration", I would prefer to classify work done to a golf course based upon, whether or not it preserves the original architectual design integrity of the golf course.

Since most material changes to a golf course can't be undone for a period of about twenty (20) years, any deviation from the design integrity must be examined thoroughly, cautiously and always in consultation with the architect.  This can also serve to create second thoughts on adopting the latest fad, or dull the enthusiasm for a popular but damaging change in the name of fairness.

In my limited experience, a club is lucky if they have two to four knowledgeable people serving on the green committee, and especially lucky if the chairman is knowledgeable as well.

I ask you to review the motivation for the removal of bunkers when it was done for non-financial reasons.
Almost universally, it was to suit the particular games of those in power, or their wives, and always, of course, in the name of fairness.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Craig Rokke

Re: Can old committees be held responsible
« Reply #29 on: May 30, 2002, 12:35:20 PM »
Just as you shouldn't necessarily be punished for some of the semi-distasteful outfits you donned during your bar excursions in college, old committees should generally not be held responsible, either. They generally had the best interests of the club at heart.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Can old committees be held responsible
« Reply #30 on: May 30, 2002, 12:41:01 PM »
Craig,

I never wore a semi-distasteful outfit to a bar, or anywhere else, in college, prior to, or subsequent.

You must have me confused with some other green committee members who have a history of making bad decisions.

P.S.  The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

Craig Rokke

Re: Can old committees be held responsible
« Reply #31 on: May 30, 2002, 12:50:50 PM »
I wasn't referring to you specifically, Patrick.  :) (Perhaps more to myself.)

It'll be interesting to see how the current trend toward restoration is viewed 20 years from now. Will course
committee members feel antsy to make changes for the sake of making changes? What will another 25 yards added to driver distance cause people to do?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Can old committees be held responsible
« Reply #32 on: May 30, 2002, 08:25:34 PM »
Pat:

When you start to use cliches like "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" and juxtapose that with remarks like "...I never wore a semi-distasteful outfit...." and also with the remark .."you must have confused me with some other green committee members who have a history of making bad decisions" and also state that you've served on many green committees and boards, I become reminded of the wonderful remark of a great old Jewish Wall Street analyst I used to know who said:

"Never trust a man, his opinions or his advice who claims he's never made a mistake!"

So, just say it ain't so!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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