[Ran Morrissett]

How do you explain the outrageous number of really good courses that Long Island possesses?

My own personal take of things is that L.I. possesses two of the five greatest courses in the world, another two that are in the world top thirty-five, and maybe ten more that are in the top hundred in the U.S.

For instance, I reckon a course like Westhampton CC (which not too many people have even heard of) would be the talk of the town if it was in Texas.

How do you account for such a high number of quality designs? Is it as easy to explain as great architects getting to work with great property?

Cheers,

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ran,

Is it possible that Long Island possesses several desireable qualities.

Access to population and resort centers.
Wealth
Varied and wonderful topography,
Wealth
Good soil conditions
Wealth
Unending miles of Coastline.
Wealth
And, no matter where you go, WIND.

These seem like a powerful set of forces that combine to mandate the  producing of good golf courses.

But, that's just my opinion.

[Mike_Young]

A deep sand base and weather that will grow cool season grasses and population support.

[Matt_Ward]

Long Island is located in the right place (soil and proximity to the USA's largest city plus the $$ Pat alluded to) at the right time (the place where many revered architects of years past plied their trade when coming to America) -- the so-called Golden Age of Design.

Clearly, the other element Pat cited -- wind. Not too many calm days one can expect when playing many of the top ones on the Island.

Since you mentioned ten LI courses would be in the USA top 100 Ran -- I'd be most interested in seeing your listing of the ten (in order if possible).

Thanks.

[Ran Morrissett]

Many architects did their finest work on LI: Flynn (Shinnecock), Macdonald (NGLA), Raynor (Lido), perhaps Colt & Alison (Timber Point), Strong (Engineers), Emmet/Travis (GCGC), perhaps Wilson (Meadowbrook or Deepdale), perhaps Rees Jones (Atlantic), Park (Maidstone), Bahto (Stonebridge)   , etc.

Something sure inspired the lads to do well!

[George Bahto]

In the context of the Golden Age, certainly the shorelines and the soil were major factors but to me it was all about wealth - most of the founders of the old great courses were in business in on form or another in NY City

i vote wealth by a huge margin

[Patrick_Mucci]

George Bahto,

I tried to convey that to Ran in a not so subtle form, but I think he missed it.  

Ran,

The Creek = The Gold Coast
Piping Rock = Poloponie$

[John_D._Bernhardt]

I say Wealth wealth and more wealth when even more so than now relative to the rest of the country.

[John_Conley]

Is there any question?  At the time they were developed, Long Island possessed abundant land close to a population base.  The developers themselves were often among the wealthiest people of their era.  The topography, soil, and proximity to natural bodies of water seals the deal.

Let me turn the question around for Ran.  If Long Island didn't exist, what would your request be for a region on which to design golf courses?  Much of what you'd list was found on the Long Island of the early 1900s.

(Ran:  I estimate that 1/2 of America's Top courses are within 2 hours or so of New York City.  An average club their would hold up well in 80% of our cities.)

[TEPaul]

Ran:

You see Pat Mucci never really gets it right and if he's even in the vicinity he can't seem to explain himself and get his point across successfully.

So, let me help you out again Pat with the point you were trying to make but obviously didn't or couldn't.

The reason the quality of golf courses on LI is so good is all about one thing!

WEALTH!

[Will W]

most of you gentlemen are applying a Marxist interpretation to the question  are you really such economic determinists?

i tend to agree with mike young and matt ward.  soil conditions and wind (geographical factors) are very favorable for golf.  had long island been composed of the same granite/rock foundation that manhattan is composed of, would we have seen a similar number of world-class golf courses?  i think not.

i think the other thing that must be accounted for is the "social craze" that golf became during the early 1890s - 1920s.  matt pointed out that many golf architects got there start in L.I.  but weren't many of them invited by golf crazed individuals eager to start new golf clubs?

[Jamie_Duffner]

Wealth for sure, but today there is plenty of wealth to build a course just about anywhere, and move a whole lot of dirt.  Are the newer courses better than Shinnecock, NGLA, Maidstone, Garden City Bethpage, Deepdale, West Hampton, Piping Rock, so on and so on?  Pete Dye once said the East end of Long Island is the closest thing to Scottish conditions anywhere in America.  Due to proximity to NYC, golf courses were going to be built no matter what during the early 20th century.  Fact is, they could have been rather ordinary, but given the outstanding terrain, they turned out to be world class.  If the wealth had been centered somewhere else, would that area now have a Shinnecock or NGLA?

[ChipOat]

I hope Atlantic isn't Rees Jones' finest work - especially given the environmental restrictions with which he was forced to deal.

Re: Strong's best work.  Engineers is good but Inwood is better.

[brad_miller]

Chip, sounds like Inwood is a "hidden gem?"

[Mike_Cirba]

Brad,

I know last year Patrick Mucci was absolutely raving about the qualities of Inwood, after Tom Doak's restoration there.

I believe he was even considering membership, he felt so strongly about the course's attributes.  

btw - Great idea on your voice message last night!!  

[ChipOat]

Brad Miller:

You bet it's a gem!  Wasn't always hidden, though, as Jones won his first major there ('23 Open) and either Cruickshank or Hagen won the PGA there a few years later.

Pat Mucci is, in fact, another big admirer of the layout as is Brad Klein, who grew up caddying there.

[Gib_Papazian]

Lots of good points.  Wealth, terrain, population centers etc.

In my view, the missing ingredient here begins with NGLA. The original Shinnecock Hills absolutely sucked. A horrible golf course that criss-crossed the L.I. RR tracks six times.

NGLA set the bar and if you wanted to hang with the big dogs in the neighborhood,  you had to cough up something to keep up with the Jones's. The reason Shinnecock was redesigned (the first time) was it looked like crap compared to the masterpiece next door.

Not surprisingly, Newport CC - surrounded by some of the most oppulent estates ever built in this nation - was improved because of another club next  door to it . . . . but you have to buy the book to learn about that one.

I firmly believe that when the socialites figured out what a *REAL* golf course could look like, that became the expectation in the area.

There is also tremendous wealth in Westchester and New Jersey, so even though the soil content is nothing like L.I., I'd bet they wanted something comparable to what the bluebloods had on Long Island.

Piping Rock was nothing more than a function of the same  rich people who belonged to NGLA wanting a place to tee it up closer to Manhattan.

Don't forget, social jealousy, one-upmanship, exclusivity and racial and religious prejudices were often the engines that drove much of the Golden Age construction boom.

Olympic - in many respects - is a response to SFGC. Peninsula CC  (FKA Beresford CC) was organized when Jewish residents could not get into Olympic, SFGC or Burlingame CC. They were so determined to have something equal to the big clubs that they lured Donald  Ross across the country - it is the only Ross Course west of the Rockies.

The point is, once a high standard is set in a major population area, new courses/clubs are almost forced to present the same quality.  Nobody wants to belong to a dog track when there is something special right nearby.  Ego is a powerful thing - especially in wealthy people.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Will W,

It wouldn't have mattered if Long Island were composed of granite, once YALE was built.

The architecture and methodology would have been imported and great courses would have been built to rival it, vis a vis Gib's theory.

Why there aren't a lot of good courses in Connecticut is a mystery to me.

CC of Fairfield and YALE are a good start, but one would be pressed to find a dozen.

[Gib_Papazian]

Patrick,

What is the socioeconomic history of Connecticut?

Did rich people not on L.I. tend to go to Newport?

I suppose Fishers Island ought to count as Connecticut, but was told it is technically in New York because of some peculiarity in an Indian treaty.

Does anybody know?

[TEPaul]

Gib;

Basically the "rich people" of that early era, no matter what city or state they lived in or came from knew each other to a degree that would alarm us today!

The so-called "Wasp" aristocracy of that era that was responsible for so many great clubs and courses particularly up and down the Eastern Seaboard appear almost like an enormous extended family. So Connecticut really wasn't that much different than New York, Long Island, Boston or Philadephia in it's socioeconomic interconnection.

This interconnection can be seen in real evidence in the populations of the so-called "summer communities" whether they were the Hamptons (the East End), Newport, Jamestown, Watch Hill, Fishers Island, the Cape or coastal Maine or the winter communities of the South, particularly Florida; these same people and families show up.

One wonders how this could have happened to such a degree as it did and the answer lies, I think, in the real power of this group of people at one time.

Basically at one point they ran America politcally, in business and were the social aristocracy of America too. The phenomenon is interesting in that in politics and business they were quite able to easily intermingle with anyone else but in their social worlds they were unbelievably insular and closed to others.

But how did they get to know each other so well from state to state and city to city which seemed to overlap so much even into golf courses? I think the answer is the schools! A large amount of them no matter where they came from sent their children to the New England boarding schools and far more so to the Ivy League colleges!

That's where they all got to know each other no matter where they came from and that interconnected their socioeconomic worlds no matter which city or state it was and filtered down to the golf clubs.  

Of all of this though the influence of Harvard, both it's college and graduate schools is truly amazing. It was by far the biggest amalgamator of the entire WASP class!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Gib,

I would agree with Tom Paul.

The southeastern part of CT was and continues to be affluent,
with business ties to NYC.

Wealthy residents commuted to NYC and city dwellers had summer estates in CT.

I'm still mystified.

[TEPaul]

Patrick Mucci!

You would What?? You would ag, agr, agree, with Tom Paul??

Have you lost your mind??

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Only temporarily.  

Don't let the secret out !

[brad_miller]

Pat, CT,plenty of good, not much great. Wee Burn and Round Hill are both very good, but behind CCF and Yale.

[TEPaul]

Yeah, I agree, I'm not sure why Connecticut is getting a bad rap for courses! It's not that big a state!

It might be within 150 miles as the crow flies of Penn's hat in Philly though which means I could make it the northern tier of the Golf Association of Philadelphia, then Connecticut would have all kinds of respect!

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