[Patrick Kiser]

That's sort of how I interpreted David's question albeit with a twist.

I kind of figured David had a gun to my head and said ''what's it gonna be?  Lincoln or Sharp?  And if you refuse to answer, you have to ask yourself one thing...  I have one bullet left.  This is a 44 Magnum and it will blow your head clean off.  So do you feel lucky?  Well do you??? Punk!!!!!''   

Something like that... 

[Eric Morrison]

P.S. Is it really true that Harding is running at $5 mil per year for maintaince due to union contracts and restrictive work clauses?  If true, what a nightmare....

$5 million?? How many people are working there 50? How many holes are there? I have a union staff of 5 FT employees for 18 holes...with seasonal help, benefits, my salary etc. we are around $550K...

[Kalen Braley]

Eric,

If you look back at Joels post in #12 thats where I first saw it and was just curious if anyone could verify or expound on that.  Seems like a stupidly insane number to me, but sadly coming from something in SF, I wouldn't be surprised if true.

[Forrest Richardson]

I heard several numbers when working on the study. What is clear is that the Harding revenue pays for most everything — so there is a rationale for continuing to pump money into harding...without it, everything dies and dried up.

The holes across the road at Sharp were know by Mackenzie as I recall, but they were built after his death. The plans for them reside in a cardboard box in the corner of a small trailer used by the superintendent. Silverfish have eaten away most of the edges. I have copies, but they were digital camera images. As I have begged (here) more than once, it would be great if someone would volunteer to go get the old plans and find someone to scan them.

Lincoln is a shame. That is all I can say. Possibly the worst best golf course I have ever set foot on. It is exactly what golf needs — a compact, precision course in the middle of a thriving city.

[Patrick Kiser]

I heard several numbers when working on the study. What is clear is that the Harding revenue pays for most everything — so there is a rationale for continuing to pump money into harding...without it, everything dies and dried up.

The holes across the road at Sharp were know by Mackenzie as I recall, but they were built after his death. The plans for them reside in a cardboard box in the corner of a small trailer used by the superintendent. Silverfish have eaten away most of the edges. I have copies, but they were digital camera images. As I have begged (here) more than once, it would be great if someone would volunteer to go get the old plans and find someone to scan them.

Lincoln is a shame. That is all I can say. Possibly the worst best golf course I have ever set foot on. It is exactly what golf needs — a compact, precision course in the middle of a thriving city.

Forrest,

I'll step up to th plate on this.  If you can introduce me or put me in touch with the superintendent ... that way he doesn't think I'm some weirdo ... I'll gladly get this done.

Then I'll gladly hand them off to Sean or Neil for anything they might be working on.

PM me with the details and I'll make it happen.

[Forrest Richardson]

Patrick — Good hearing from you. I sent you an e-mail.

One thing that might help us with this issue — they are really separate issues and two very different golf courses. Whether they might be combined into a single undertaking is another matter to debate. One theory is to dangle the Sharp opportunity to a private operator who would then be required to minimally improve, and preserve, Lincoln. Too bad we missed the funding window — this is not likely to happen anytime soon.

At Lincoln you have the ideal recipe for a privately-run course catering to locals and tourists with a remarkable under-four-hour round with great views — and a fun time. It is like the streets of SF, but with golf clubs.

At Sharp you have the potential for a quality city-run public course, but again with the potential for a private operator. Sharp could be a destination, must-play public venue if given a second life with a "new approach." Hopefully that will happen.

If I were in charge, I would attack both with very different business models. In my view, both could be profitable. The difficult part is paying for the improvements, but even that could be justified with some creativity.

[Bill_McBride]

Lincoln is a shame. That is all I can say. Possibly the worst best golf course I have ever set foot on. It is exactly what golf needs — a compact, precision course in the middle of a thriving city.

Would everyone who has played both Lincoln Park and Painswick please raise their hands?

I see you over there, Goodale.  Good.  Who else?  I count myself among the lucky few.

These are two of the most fun courses in the world, and ironically, Painswick, with a miniscule maintenance budget and played across common ground trampled by the picnicking masses, is in better condition.  Neither course drains particularly well and is pretty mucky in the dead of rainy season.  Both feature driveable greens, high risk shots, minimum acreage, hills, blind shots, tiny greens....the ultimate quirk.

I like Forrest's suggestion about Lincoln under a private operator and wish this could come to pass.  My experience in years past of the efficiency of San Francisco government makes me nervous.  I left 30 years ago and I imagine it's just gotten worse.

[Tom Huckaby]

Bill - obviously I have never played Painswick and it's damn near certain I never will.  However... I have called LIncoln Park our version of Painswick several times... so... great minds do think alike.

 

[Bill_McBride]

Bill - obviously I have never played Painswick and it's damn near certain I never will.  However... I have called LIncoln Park our version of Painswick several times... so... great minds do think alike.

 

It's interesting that they are both just under 5000 yards and play to par 67 -- or is Lincoln par 68?  There are similar shot values although Painswick is on more abrupt terrain and does have quite a few more blind shots.  Still, holes like #12 at Lincoln Park (isn't that the short par 4 over the hill blind tee shot from the front of the museum?) would fit right in at Painswick.

As a connoisseur of quirk I feel quite fortunate to have played both courses.

[Tom Huckaby]

Lincoln Park is par 68 and stretches to 5416 from the tippiest of tip tees.

From what I can tell from Painswick pictures and descriptions, LP has several holes that would fit in there.. hell damn near every par 4 has some quirk to it.  The one you are thinking of is #11.. and yes, that is quirky to the max.  But then you also have back to back 230+ yard par threes (16-17), which is quirky in and of itself. 

The problem is that most people outside of this forum call what we call quirk "a pain in the ass to play."

And given the generally horrid conditions, well... Lincoln remains a tough sell for most people.  Thankfully it does have the nice view from 17.

TH

[David Stamm]

Does anyone have some detailed photos of Lincoln?

[Forrest Richardson]

I do, but posting them is not in the cards.

[Chuck Brown]

I have not played Sharp Park, but I have played Lincoln Park a number of times.  I think it is great; a jewell.  And, to address the concerns of city politicians and those who have not been there, it is a golf course that blends absolutely beautifully with its surroundings, and is particularly amenable to general park-walkers.  Any ordinary Bay resident can have a fabulous walk in, around and through Lincoln Park.

The people who know it best have commented accurately above.  Thomas Bonk was WAAAAAYY too polite to the malevolent unionists and city managers who have more or less driven these beautiful public tracks to the point of desperation.

I'm quite sure that it was here at GCA that someone had a first-hand account of how byzantine was the City's union contract that mandated that one particular union-sanctioned guy had to do the work on fixing a broken sprinkler line that was flooding a section of the course.

To me, the last time I was at Lincoln, the maintenance was moderately-bad in comparsion to other munis I had played in other metropolitan areas.  Jackson Park in Chicago comes to mind.  Which is to say bad, but not unplayable.  And such a memorable bit of parkland so as to make it a generally pleasurable experience.

I don't live in San Francisco, but I don't know how anyone could better appraise the situation than the way Kalen Braley did:

"I'd have to agree with Patrick on this one, this seems like a text book defintion of a self-fulfilling prophesy.

1)  Mismanage the course.
2)  Talk it down and say its not getting many rounds.
3)  Keep course conditions abysmally bad and costs high.
4)  And the declare 'Well no one is playing it anymore, guess we need to shut it down'."

[John Keenan]

Bill McBride

My hand is electronically raised for having played Lincoln and planning on playing it again in the near future.

A close friend of mine is involved with a program in Atlanta to reclaim and update some of the city courses there. Funding Is via private money. A similar program  may be applicable in SF

John

[Joel_Stewart]

Funding Is via private money. A similar program  may be applicable in SF

It has already been done at Harding Park and my guess is there is nobody in this world that would be willing to try and save those 2 courses and it all boils down to dealing with the city of San Francisco and the unions.   Whats amazing is that raising the money would not be the difficult part.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill McBride

My hand is electronically raised for having played Lincoln and planning on playing it again in the near future.

A close friend of mine is involved with a program in Atlanta to reclaim and update some of the city courses there. Funding Is via private money. A similar program  may be applicable in SF

John

Hold on there, John, have you played both Lincoln Park AND Painswick?  That was the question, drawing parallels between the two Anti-Quotidians of Quirk.  Those who have played both will have interesting memories!

[John Keenan]

Bill my hand is now down. 

Careless read of your post my bad

John

[Neil_Crafter]

Forrest
The "new" holes out to the east at Sharp Park were done by Jack Fleming, who was involved in the course's original construction. Are the plans you refer to that are sitting in the super's trailer Fleming's? They would certainly be worth saving and hopefully Patrick can assist in this process. I'm sure Tully and I would love to see them.
cheers Neil

[Patrick Kiser]

Forrest
The "new" holes out to the east at Sharp Park were done by Jack Fleming, who was involved in the course's original construction. Are the plans you refer to that are sitting in the super's trailer Fleming's? They would certainly be worth saving and hopefully Patrick can assist in this process. I'm sure Tully and I would love to see them.
cheers Neil

Working on it...  I'll keep you guys posted on what I'm able to do.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill my hand is now down. 

Careless read of your post my bad

John

No problemo!

[Patrick Kiser]

An update on this...

Been trying to chase this down.  A couple of things have transpired since Forrest was in touch with the super.

The previous super left and the new super doesn't know of any design plans / drawings.

The new super put me contact with his own boss and now his boss is trying to reach out to the initial super Forrest was in touch with.  I guess they've stayed in touch.

Big loop...

So it's not hopeless, but so far ... not much to show for ... and no one on the Sharp Park side seems to know of any existing documents.

I'll keep everyone posted on what else I might find out.

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