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Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Old Corkscrew
« on: January 02, 2008, 10:20:54 PM »
Old Corkscrew is a new Nicklaus design in Estero, FL (not far from Naples/Ft. Myers) that was recently named 4th best new public over $75.  I played it yesterday.  According to the Naples Daily News today course management believe this is “an incredible honor”.  A slight hyperbole, I think.  The honor is also a “demonstration of the commitment of our staff to maintain the course in tournament condition at all times”.  Wowser, I wonder if greens that stimp about 6 are their idea of tournament condition.

As a CCFAD type of operation, with no housing component, the first thing that struck me about the operation was the number of greeters and bag handlers (at least 4) receiving people at he bag drop.  I guess it goes with the service included in the price.  The prices are high, commensurate with the fees of other courses in the general area.  This is not an area for fine affordable golf.

The setting of the course in an old growth forest of pines and oaks is very aesthetically pleasing. The routing of the course did not suffer from a lot of housing induced long rides between holes although there are a few.  It could be easily walked although I didn’t see anyone trying to walk it.  Of course, walking would miss the latest GPS technology on the cart.  It provided a really neat virtual fly-by of the coming hole as you approach the tee (great, as long as you don’t drive into a tree as you watch the flyby :D)

The front nine is more or less an out and back south-north loop with the 9th ending up across the end east-west.  The back nine changed directions more frequently and played to all the compass points.  The playing corridors were sometimes generous and sometimes tight.  Although the property appeared to not have much in the way of ponds or water features to start, there are certainly many water features in the final layout.  Personally, I would have preferred less.  There were a mix of long and short threes, although oddly the two long threes were both on the front side.  There were a couple of short (but not reasonably drivable) par 4’s.  The guidebooks suggest that a number of the 5’s are reachable, but in each case the water abutting the green will make the risk too great for most.

The most notable feature of the course for me was the greens.  Most have a lot of abrupt internal movement around many small knobs and swales and ridges.  You could get seasick of some of the greens trying to visualize the line.  They certainly grab your attention.  Perhaps that is why they they had them playing so slow.  I found the slow speed quite off-putting.  At leas tone of the greens also hadn’t grown in and had had large sections resodded and other sections sanded. I’d bet it had a lot to do with its siting in the forest – not enough light or air circulation.  The condition of the greens was enough for me to question the full fare they were charging.  On the other hand the course was crowded, so people appear willing to pay the freight at least at this point.

One other feature of note was the use of railroad tie bulwarks around some of the water features.  It creates very abrupt lines.  Three of the par 5’s were sort of repetitive in that going for the green called for a second shot across water to a green with either a very steep sodded bank or a bulwark (see picture below) at the green. Again, a visually abrupt feature.  A couple of them, and a couple of other holes being kind of cape greens.  There also seemed to me to be a lot of holes with water running down the left side of the hole – seemed a bit repetitive.

The (almost) final word to my wife – the archetypal short female golfer – it was too hard.  Too many forced carries or tacking around features.  Too hard to cross bunkers and hit the green.

The 6617 yard blue tees were rated at 73.4 and sloped at 140, so I guess it is pretty hard for the men too.  Of course, you could punish yourself at 7393 yards and 75.9 and 148.  The conditioning was S&S (that’s slow and soggy) if you don’t think these lengths aren’t long enough.

The long par 3 second



The tee shot on the double dogleg par 5 third



An abrupt bank on the the third if you come up short



The short par 4 fourth.  Nice crossing bunker.




An intersting forward tee to fairway continuum.



The approach to the bulwarked 8th with a drought stricken water feature.



Don't miss long or right of the 11th.



The short par 4 13th.  Unfortunately the green was mostly freshly resodded.



I liked the bunker framing on the long par 4 14th



A tough approach to the 14th green from the wrong angle.






Mike_Cirba

Re:Old Corkscrew
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2008, 10:28:56 PM »
Bryan,

Thanks for the report.

I really like that abrupt bank on the 3rd, and the course to me is reminiscent of similar recent worthwhile efforts from the Nicklaus group in equally flat Delaware where some combination of ground contouring, angles, bunker placement, and water are mostly needed to create visual and strategic interest.

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Old Corkscrew
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2008, 11:44:33 PM »
Mike,

The bank on the third is fine, but it is replicated on the 11th, so I thought it was a little repetitive.  The sum of the contouring, banks, angles and bunkering certainly present an aesthetically pleasing course.  One play didn't really allow me much oportunity to study the strategic aspects of the course although I expect that the strategy is there.

John Foley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Old Corkscrew
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2008, 10:08:24 AM »
Bryan,

Thanks for the details. I get down to Naples every spring w/ the familly to visit my mother-in-law and saw some details on this course last year durring the visit. If I recall the greens fee's are north of $150 which fits the area but does not fit the definition of affordable golf.

I'd love to see it, but at those numbers it ain't happening.
Integrity in the moment of choice

Bob Barriger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Old Corkscrew
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2008, 06:50:22 PM »
Bryan, pretty accurate on your description of the course. I played it right after it opened last January  and Feb07 a few times and again this past Oct. The green condition seemed to have deteriorated in that 10 month period.  The greens are almost over the top in undulations especially the par 5 15th. I thought the par 4's offered a decent variety of approach shots and the par 3's a decent variety of clubs to hit except from the tips which I played the first few times and in Oct moved up a set of tees when I couldn't reach the par 4 10th with my best drive and fairway metal the previous round. Nicklaus wanted it to be private but the owners knowing what the golf market was like in SW Florida for private courses got it opened for public access.  My understanding is that when they can get enough members, it will go private but that could be a while.  At one point there was talk of a seasonal membership for the snowbirds, but I do not know if that membership level has been offered.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Old Corkscrew
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2008, 09:40:19 PM »
Here's the membership deal:

www.oldcorkscrew.com/membership.php
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Old Corkscrew
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2008, 10:20:38 PM »
I went back and played it a second time yesterday on a very cold windy FL day.  I have to report that the greens speeds were somewhat better.  The greens had been topdressed and cut so they might have run around 8.  Much better.

John,

Don't give up hope.  The first day we paid $100, the twilight rate.  We finished before dark.  The second time I paid $120 for prime morning time through lastminutegolfer.com  The regular prime time fees were too much for my liking.

Bob,

It'll be interesting to see if they can pick up enough members with no housing component.  It was pretty busy the two days I was there, so maybe they will.  But the membership deal doesn't seem all that great.

You must be some stud if you knowingly take on a course rated 75.9 and 148.  ;D

Andy Troeger

Re: Old Corkscrew
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2009, 10:03:24 AM »
I played Old Corkscrew on a recent trip to Florida and figured I would bump the thread.

I agree with many of Bryan's comments from his original post. The course is very difficult in just about every aspect for anyone short of a professional. I found the individual holes to be very well considered and designed in most aspects, but there does become a redundancy with the course as a hole when you have one tough hole after another with water features and difficult greens. There are plenty of risk/reward options, but unless you pull off the perfect shot you're going to lose a lot of golf balls on this course by being agressive. It tends to force you to play position golf in a conservative manner and hope to execute properly.

A couple of things I would note:

I found the 4th hole is very drivable, its under 300 yards straight to the green from the blue tees. I gave it a go and missed well right and was lucky to make a par. The 13th is a great little hole as well, but much more difficult. Those are two of the better holes on the course.

The green speeds were just fine, probably in the 9 range which on those greens is about where they should be.

I also played The Concession on the trip, another recent Nicklaus effort. I think Old Corkscrew was the easier and possibly softer course of the two played from a similar yardage!

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Corkscrew
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2009, 04:10:53 PM »
I hadn't seen this thread before, but to echo Mike Cirba's comment above, these pictures look a lot like the Nicklaus effort at Peninsula on the Indian River Bay (or something like that), which I thought was a pretty fun place to play .... except for the housing development. 

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Corkscrew
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2009, 05:10:21 PM »
I played Old Corkscrew on a recent trip to Florida and figured I would bump the thread.

I agree with many of Bryan's comments from his original post. The course is very difficult in just about every aspect for anyone short of a professional. I found the individual holes to be very well considered and designed in most aspects, but there does become a redundancy with the course as a hole when you have one tough hole after another with water features and difficult greens. There are plenty of risk/reward options, but unless you pull off the perfect shot you're going to lose a lot of golf balls on this course by being agressive. It tends to force you to play position golf in a conservative manner and hope to execute properly.

A couple of things I would note:

I found the 4th hole is very drivable, its under 300 yards straight to the green from the blue tees. I gave it a go and missed well right and was lucky to make a par. The 13th is a great little hole as well, but much more difficult. Those are two of the better holes on the course.

The green speeds were just fine, probably in the 9 range which on those greens is about where they should be.

I also played The Concession on the trip, another recent Nicklaus effort. I think Old Corkscrew was the easier and possibly softer course of the two played from a similar yardage!

Andy,

What did you think of Concession? Would love to hear your thoughts...

Andy Troeger

Re: Old Corkscrew
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2009, 07:22:40 PM »
Sean,
I'd say many of the same things about Concession as Old Corkscrew. I think everything in my previous description (in quotes below) is fair to say about Concession as well:

"The course is very difficult in just about every aspect for anyone short of a professional. I found the individual holes to be very well considered and designed in most aspects, but there does become a redundancy with the course as a hole when you have one tough hole after another with water features and difficult greens. There are plenty of risk/reward options, but unless you pull off the perfect shot you're going to lose a lot of golf balls on this course by being agressive. It tends to force you to play position golf in a conservative manner and hope to execute properly."

Given all that, the front nine at the Concession is better than Old Corkscrew. The 8th hole especially is fantastic as a short four over a diagonal creek to a narrow green. The back nine has a lot of water and got a little redundant to me. As mentioned, its very difficult with a 155 slope from the tips. I did not play well but don't think I could score that well there under any circumstances--even as a single digit I'm not good enough to handle the severe greens and water penalties. Although Concession is generally rated higher, I see them as being pretty similar in most categories.

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Corkscrew
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2009, 08:02:04 PM »
Crazy how connecting a course with local vegetation can do...

Improves the visual
Creates a sense of place
Tie in with the site
Hide the bad tie-ins if there's some

John Moore II

Re: Old Corkscrew
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2009, 11:23:31 PM »
I like the look of the course, though it does look like a brute. If I ever make it to Naples, I may try and play there. It looks fairly interesting.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Corkscrew
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2009, 04:19:59 AM »
Man, from the very first pic I didn't like the bunkering.  It is great that Jack leaves a runup to the green and I also like that flow of the hole to the right makes that runup a precise shot.  But why oh why then stick a bunker at the end?  Let the fallaway continue.  I really hate this idea bunkering taking over as the primary penalty.



I much prefer this approach to design whereby the missed shot rolls to its fate.  That little sandless scar short right of the green is cool as well.



Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Andy Troeger

Re: Old Corkscrew
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2009, 10:07:57 AM »
Sean,
I see what you're getting at with the first photo, but its a little misleading. There is a fair sized run off area short of the right bunker--it looks better if you can see the entire thing and the entire bunker but I don't have a good photo of it--you'll just have to trust me!  ;D

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Corkscrew
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2009, 12:35:51 PM »
Sean,

Here's a picture of what Andy was talking about re the bunker.  It's fairly far back and the lie of the land will kick the ball off right before it gets to the bunker.  The bunker is perhaps a little redundant.  Re the second picture, there are a lot of other areas where the ball will run happily off to it's fate.




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