[TEPaul]

How important do you think they are to have and analyze?

I submit they are incredibly valuable for true architectural analysis to determine in specific detail what existed naturally and how the site was used and what was enhanced and built.

How many of you have ever really tried to use a pre-construction topo (contour map) and analyze in real detail (hole by hole in detail) what a site looked like before a course was designed and built and what the course turned out to be?

To me finding a preconstruction topo map of say NGLA, Merion East, even courses like Myopia or Oakmont would be like finding a "site holy grail."

I bet few of you have ever spend hours or days or weeks on some famous old course trying to analyze this kind of thing have you?

One famous course this does exist for is Pine Valley but man alive they are faint in some places and hard to analyze but even with what's left it is a remarkable experience to analyze it. Generally, I would say there was less large scale earthmoving than one would think looking at the golf course but some areas are surprising.

Who has spent some real analytical time ON THE SITE of an old or famous golf course (not just at your computers) trying to figure out what was natural and what was created with earth movement?

[Mike McGuire]

We have this map of our 1930 Langford course. One foot contour lines with the proposed course drawn on top of it.  Langford - and Moreau - were civil engineers, they were trained to spend time to author a detailed base map.

I have not really spent much time analyzing it but your post gives me the idea to look at this.

[Art_Schaupeter]

I don't know how "important" they would be, but it would be very interesting in trying to understand some of the architect's thought process and design objective.  By looking at the grading plan you could get an idea of what natural features the architect liked and what natural areas the architect felt needed some "enhancement".

The reason I emphasize important is because my initial thought is that the only thing that is important is the result.  The process of getting to the result would be interesting to see though. 

There is another step in the process that would also need to be evaluated, the construction.  I would be curious to see how similar the grading plans would be to the final product.  There is a lot of adjustment and interpretation that occurs during construction that makes the original grading plan a bit obsolete on many projects, at least with modern construction practices.  Maybe it's less so during the golden age under the premise that less earthwork was typically done.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

The land NGLA sits on wasn't even surveyed according to CBM.

Topo maps would be interesting, I just doubt how many existed in the early part of the 20th Century.

What's amazing to me is how these fellows, without the benefit of hi-tech, were able to walk the woods and fields and design and construct marvelous golf courses.  They were truely talented men.

[herrstein]

I have the original contours for Lookout Mountain, upon which the course design is overlaid in colored pencil. I have been promising people I will get this thing scanned, but it's 7 feet wide! I think I'll have to take pictures.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom P:  I agree with Art; the result is what's important.

I have a small collection of as-built topos of a few famous courses, and they've been a great reference over the years in deciding what is a steep sidehill fairway, how far uphill you can play and still be comfortable, etc.

If you look at the topo of the final result, you know what to look for on the topo to create a similar hole elsewhere.  If the green is already graded out, so much the better. 

[Craig Disher]

TEP,
I've used USGS topo maps as background for old aerials and occasionally it's useful, especially on NLEs that existed in residential areas where it's hard to determine ground contours. One problem with the USGS maps is that they are scaled at 1:25000 and the contour lines are 10'. Some of the aerials have more detail than that.

One of the most interesting walk-abouts I've had was with you and Wayne years ago when we tried to visualize Flynn's original 9-hole plan at Manor CC.  Although we didn't have a routing diagram for the 9, from looking at the ground it was obvious where Flynn had sited his greens and fairways.

[Willie_Dow]

The topo for Merion East today is much the same as the origional contour.  The old barn on the hill at number three is a good example, and the drainage down to the eleventh green is certainly much the same.

Again a good study for catch basins.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

Does one exist for Merion?

We have copies/photos of the ones for Cobbs Creek but at 10 foot intervals I'm afraid it might miss a lot of micro-contours.

[Willie_Dow]

Mike

I got the Merion topo at Franklin Publishing last fall when I started looking into the Cobbs Creek affair.  The copy is in Devon, and when I return in April we'll give it a go. 

[Ian Andrew]

The one I have always wanted is Spyglass Hill.

I was there this week and would really like to see what alternatives there were for the site. Obviously you'll never know every detail, but that's still a routing that confounds me.

If some one has this - I would love to see it.

Ian

[Charlie Goerges]

Has anyone else ever used the USGS Seamless server for this kind of thing? I must admit to having kind of an addiction to all of the various available mapping and GIS information. Each state also seems to have a similar data warehouse with whatever GIS data they have.

One thing that may be of interest is I found that New York has been in the habit of taking .5 foot resolution aerials for the past decade or so. I'm compiling the information from the latest one for Philip Young's upcoming US Open preview thread. They also make DEM data and other data available that can be converted into contour maps.

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
The land NGLA sits on wasn't even surveyed according to CBM."


 


Patrick:

"Seth Raynor was born in Suffolk County in 1878 and settled in Southampton as a surveyor. Employing him to survey our Sebonac Neck property, I was so much impressed with his dependability and seriousness I had him make a contour map and later gave him my surveyor's maps which I had brought from Scotland and England, telling him that I wanted those holes laid out faithfully to those maps. For three to four years he worked by my side."
Scotland's Gift Golf, C.B. Macdonald, 1928

Way to go; you seem to be maintaining that 98.2 wrong percentage.  IMPRESSIVE!   

[TEPaul]

Willie:

You have a topo contour map of Merion East before the course was built? That would be something very special to analyze!

I would wager it will show less earth moved than one might suspect. 

[Willie_Dow]

No Tom

Sorry, but I don't have the "site holy grail"; only a more current topo of the land and its surrounds.  But I agree with you that not much ground was probably recontured, except for the Alps 10th.  So much of the area is flushed out over time by the natural land contours of the creeks and streams.  The quarry is discussed in the history books, including the skating pond, and the pipes from the Cobbs flow to make the pond.  The dam is still there, although grown over.

[john_stiles]

I think Dougie is right !  He has been promising.  It is a big GCA land scape contouring ponzi scheme.

[Patrick_Mucci]

"TEPaul,
The land NGLA sits on wasn't even surveyed according to CBM."
[/quote/

Patrick:

"Seth Raynor was born in Suffolk County in 1878 and settled in Southampton as a surveyor. Employing him to survey our Sebonac Neck property, I was so much impressed with his dependability and seriousness I had him make a contour map and later gave him my surveyor's maps which I had brought from Scotland and England, telling him that I wanted those holes laid out faithfully to those maps. For three to four years he worked by my side."
Scotland's Gift Golf, C.B. Macdonald, 1928

Way to go; you seem to be maintaining that 98.2 wrong percentage.  IMPRESSIVE!   

TEPaul,

Must I teach you everything

From Page 187 of "Scotland's Gift"

"However, there happened to be some 450 acres of land on Sebonac Neck, having a mile frontage on Peconic Bay and lying between Cold Spring Harbor and Bull's Head Bay.

THIS PROPERTY WAS LITTLE KNOWN AND HAD NEVER BEEN SURVEYED.

Every one thought it was more or less worthless.  It abounded in bogs and swamps and was covered with an entanglement of bayberry, huckleberry, blackberry, and other bushes and was infested by insects.  The only way one could get over the ground was on ponies.  So, Jim Whigham and myself spend tow or three days riding over it, studying the contours on the ground.  Finally we determined it was what we wanted, providing we could get it reasonably.  It adjoined the Shinnecock Hills Golf Course.

The Company agreed to sell us 205 acres, and we were permitted to locate it as best to serve our purpose.  Again, we studied the contours earnestly; selecting those that would fit in naturally with the various classical holes I had in mind, after which we staked out the land we wanted."

It was only AFTER MacDonald selected and purchased the land that he had Raynor survey it.

Prior to the selection and purchase, it had NEVER been surveyed, which is what I stated.

The beauty of your thinking me wrong 98.2 % of the time is that as an idiot savant, you invert your numbers.  We all know you meant 1.8 % of the time. 

 

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

You're unbelievable. You're wrong over 95% of the time and you seem to be incapable of ever admitting any of it. The subject and title of this thread is PRE-construction contour survey maps on old courses and not PRE-purchase contour topo survey maps on land that eventually was used to build golf courses! 

The fact is Macdonald explained in his book that Raynor produced a survey map (probably topo contoured) for NGLA's property PRE-construction and you never knew that. It is just endless how I've had to and continually have to teach you about the history and evolution of old golf course architecture!

It's a shame that Raynor PRE-construction survey map of NGLA's property has apparently been lost. George Bahto said he is aware of some contour drawings of the property for specific areas of earth movement but that does not sound to me like a PRE-construction topo contour map of the property that was purchased to build NGLA.

The unfortunate fact is NGLA apparently tossed some important stuff from Macdonald's NGLA and their architectural history, at some point, perhaps in the 1950s.

[Bradley Anderson]

Tom,

In this picture you can see a 1920's drainage schematic. The topo lines are there as well.

I am amazed at how sophisticated the drainage system is here. This is an Alison course. The drainage design was done by a civil engineer.

Not sure if this is pre or post construction, but either way I think it illustrates is how important a good topo is for designing drainage.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

The driving range on Rt 27, East of NGLA, has a schematic of NGLA hanging on the wall.  It's probably the 1928 schematic.  I tried to buy it, but, they didn't want to sell.

I wonder what other NGLA golf related documents are in the possession of long time residents on the East End.

I bet an advertisement in the local papers offering payment for related documents might produce some interesting results.

I'd be surprised if anyone has tried that approach.

As to Raynor's work, CBM had already picked the sites for his specific holes prior to the production of any survey.

[TEPaul]

"As to Raynor's work, CBM had already picked the sites for his specific holes prior to the production of any survey."

Patrick:

How do you know when Macdonald asked Raynor to prepare a survey map of that property or when Raynor did that? If you are talking about when he and Whigam looked at the property (apparently on horseback) before it was purchased and felt they found some landforms for some template holes that is not what one would call PRE-construction and that is not what one might say the rest of the holes on the course had been designed or that the course had even been initially routed in toto! 

[RJ_Daley]

For obvious reasons, any find of pre-construction contour maps of famous old (golden era) courses, or any courses pre-1940s would be a rare find.  To have a decent pre-construction topo, and to have the oportunity to bring it to the field and walk the land, comparing what was, and what was done is a GCA.com freak's wetdream. 

I've walked several land parcels with a good 2' ele contour map on 1"=100 and 200'.  It is a blast.  It takes a while to get the hang of it.  Then, you start to develop an ability to just look at the contour map and generally visualize the nature and slope of the terrain.  I actually did this a number of times where I only generally viewed some land, without a serious walkabout, then got a decent topo and routed what I thought was interesting possible routing - then taken it in the field to see how wrong I was.  But, then adjusting and making notes and markers on the map from being on the ground, one can go back and have a more realistic chance to lay something out, and begin to see the land on the paper.  It is a blast. 

But, doing so on famous old courses - that is like getting a Phd. in gcageekdom.   

[Neil_Crafter]

Alex Russell, who trained as a civil engineer at Cambridge, prepared a contour plan of the Royal Melbourne site at Sandringham in 1924, as a basis for the scheme (and model) he prepared then. No sign of it today though.

Neil

[John Foley]

How long would have it taken in 1910 -1940 for a team to accurately survey a 100-300 acre site to 1ft contours and then draw it out by hand? Forever? There can't be very many which exist.

Nowadays it's gotta be done flown & then heavily post processed.

Charlie - I've downloaded & interpolated a few sites, but have not seen the NY sites that have the 0.5 ft intervals

[TEPaul]

JohnF:

Believe me, I do not have the vaguest idea what the surveying processes were for land or courses back then but flying a site was not the process or an option back then. One of the very early Pine Valley survey topo (contour) maps at the base of the map actually spells out two separate survey processes used on different parts of the property. Pretty interesting stuff when you think about it. Again, flying was not much of a survey option in 1913 for fairly obvious reasons! 

What they were probably using were those tripod things with leveling mechanisms on all kinds of spots. Have you ever seen someone shoot the grades on a green?

I did it one time with Gil Hanse on a green we were doing at my course and he just had that tripod thing you look through and I had the big ruler or whatever it's called and he just kept saying; "put it here, put it there, whatever. The whole thing on maybe a 6,000 SF green took less than a half hour.

That particular green from our conception to his shaping and building and shooting the grades of it has affectionately been called by the club and others as "The boobs and cleavage." It started out its life in play as distinctly controversial and I'm sincerely sorry to have to report that the right boob (or left boob depending on where one puts their approach on the green) has undergone a slight mastectomy. You should have seen me trying to explain that one, the reasons for it and how to do it to our Green Committee which at the time had a female chairman and three other female Green Committee members!

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