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Sam Kestin

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Re: More Changes to #8 at Riviera?
« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2009, 03:44:40 PM »
When Mr. Reilly asked me to post my feelings about #8, I had a tough time collecting my thoughts. Despite having played the "new" eight a gaggle of times since they finished the work in 2002, I still have never really come to a solid position as to how I feel about the return to the double fairway concept. It certainly has more than its fair share of critics...

One thing I do think is that it might be easier to achieve the desired balance between the risks/rewards of playing either way by looking at possible changes to the configuration of the green...in lieu of making any change to the landing areas for drives to either fairway.

I'm going to have a tough time describing what I'm talking about here...it would be easier if I could just show you...but if you’re interested in reading on--bear with me while I do my best. 

Take a look at the profile of #8 in my course guide (http://www.azaleagolf.com/rivieraGuide-8.shtml)...specifically, check out the positioning of hole locations A, B and E. If you compare their location on the green to the corresponding section of the green slope map at the bottom (hopefully you can work through my total ineptitude at all things artistic) you’ll notice how each of these pins are cut scarily close to the false edge that runs off into the barranca on the right side. You’ll also notice that this edge is not angular…it does a very slight “S” shape from the back-right towards #6 tee before hooking back around the front-left of the putting surface.   
 
Why does this matter? Because the irregular shaping cuts in front of some portions of the right side of the green as you look at it from the right-side fairway…it doesn’t just run down the right side of it. This “hangs” the middle and back right areas of the green out over the barranca ever so slightly (like the relatively new back-left pin at #13, but in reverse)--broadening the reach and influence of the hazard by using it as a penalizing mechanism not just for shots that are off line left/right but also shots that come up just a few steps short (like Tommy Armour III making the sickest eight I’ve ever seen yesterday after landing his wedge approach just steps away from the hole and watching it spin back and trickle down the hill).

Now, to the front pin (A) from yesterday, this effect created by the false edge doesn’t have any significant impact on which fairway is better suited for a more ideal approach angle because the false edge also wraps around the front and left--effectively creating the same “TA3 Problem” for those who try and attack this pin from the left side as well. Because neither side provides a significant improvement in angle as a reward to the player choosing the riskier tee shot, he ends up being forced to choose between the two tee shot options based upon only the risks inherent in either tactic. Because the tee shot is more challenging to the left side than the right, few will ever go left when the pin is here. This same concept rings true to middle and back-left hole locations…the reward for going left off the tee is either miniscule or non-existent in comparison to the much greater challenge of driving it up the left.

However, to the two hole right-side hole locations deeper into the green (B & E…most especially B), there is a significantly better angle of approach to act as the reward for going left if the pin is cut all the way right on these little shelves hanging over the barranca.

I’ll go back again to the Saturday (back-left) pin at #13 to demonstrate why the angle is better from the left to hole locations B&E at #8. Because the finger of green on which that flagstick it is located is hung out over the hazard instead of flushed up evenly against it, shots on-line short of the hole will draw back down the hill into the barranca.

Therefore, the closer the player hits his tee shot to the short side the worse angle he has at the hole and the more he must risk putting the approach into the hazard should he choose to play aggressively at the hidden hole location.

This effect is mitigated the further away from the short side the player hits his drive. That angle is significantly better than its opposite for two reasons; (1) from there, the player has whole lot more green to work with from the front edge to the pin, and; (2) there is more breathing room for the misplayed shot. If you apply the mirror image of this same theory to the two hole locations in the back/right on #8, logic would dictate that the further left the player is off the tee the better off he’d be.

Still, not everyone (in fact the minority of players in the Northern Trust) will go left at #8 when the hole is located in areas B & E because the reverse-#13 effect I talk about above only applies when the pin is cut no more than four or so paces from that right edge. More often than not, the TOUR doesn’t put the pin all the way over here…and rare is the day when Mr. Morton (the superintendent) is in a feisty enough mood that the members see the hole located there as well.

You might be asking--why is any of what I said at all relevant if the pin position that creates the situation I spend a billion paragraphs describing is almost never used? Because it illustrates the way in which you could correct the existing imbalance of risk and reward that leads to nine out of ten players (approximately…I didn’t have a chance to get the exact stats) choosing to hit their tee shots up the right side. As mentioned above, three of the five distinct areas in which the hole can be located offer no reward for the risk of going up the left…while the two that might offer some reward for that play are usually never used in the manner that would bring into play the strategic concepts I’ve been rambling about in this essay.

If you took the strategy behind the concept I discussed regarding the back-left hole location at #13 and rebuilt the green at #8 to enhance this effect a little more (really hang that pin out on the corner), you could command a play to the left a lot more often...and players might be more likely to split their decisions from the tee at a more interesting rate of 60/40 instead of the current 90/10 favoring that right fairway.

I know this has been a long winded essay and it probably doesn't make a whole lot of sense...I'll try to put together some graphics in the near future to more easily illustrate via the visual a concept that takes way too many words to articulate.

For those of you who made it this far...thanks for reading. I'd love to know what you think.


Sam


PS- Just as I finish this up and get ready to post it, I look up at the telecast and see that the TOUR used the pin I'm talking about…and, consequently, both Freddy and Phil went left.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2009, 08:08:56 PM by Sam Kestin »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: More Changes to #8 at Riviera?
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2009, 07:31:58 PM »
Sam, I was also there watching Tommy Armour's meltdown too, sorry we didn't get to meet.

What's your opinion of taking out the trees between the fairways and restoring the barranca?

Sam Kestin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: More Changes to #8 at Riviera?
« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2009, 09:34:11 PM »
Mr. McBride-

Sadly (or thankfully, I'm not quite sure), I didn't see Armour's blow up live and in color. I've been buried under a mountain of work this week and didn't even get the chance to sneak out to the tournament at all.

Probably all the better for me...I'm 5'6" and under 120 pounds... the vibrations from that 9.3 on the Richter Scale tomahawk wedge maneuver TA executed after his final hack up the hill probably would have knocked me over.

As far as the changes they are making to the landing areas for the drives at eight...I'm reluctant to pass any judgments on em' yet. As with most other holes at RCC, the little details really make a difference ...so it's hard to say what I might think without seeing the change on the ground.
 
At the end of the day, I will say I love the general theory behind what they are trying to do with most of the changes they've made as of late. The Club has undertaken a huge effort in the last decade to really enhance the strategic value of the experience at Riviera and I think they've done a tremendous job accomplishing that mission.

I won't pretend that people don't differ in their opinions about some of the details (e.g. the shape of the left bunker on #7 or the right one guarding the seventeenth fairway) and I wouldn't be so bold as to say those opinions are wrong or right...But, by and large, I think the last decade of work done to Riviera has really returned the golf course to the "chess board" type of venue that Thomas had in mind for the old Los Angeles Athletic Club.  I have no doubts that they are undertaking the work to the fairway and the barranca at #8 with the same objective in mind. To me, if history is any indication, they'll be successful again.

Still, it'll be a personal taste thing...some assess the changes weighting heavily their impact on the aesthetics of the place and the continuity of the features across all eighteen holes. This group tends not to be particularly fond of the recent work, and I can understand how they feel. The green complex as seen at #8 today is most certainly unlike most on the golf course and looks not at all like the Riviera people had come to know over many years...but, to me, that matters a lot less than how the course plays when you're standing on a tee or in a fairway and you've got to figure out how best to try and tackle the given shot.  I know that today I have to think a whole lot more around that place, even though I've played it a bunch of times and should know what I'm doing by now. But, I don't--because all these little changes they've made have added more nuance to the strategies and tactics employed across the golf course.

Looking back at today's tournament, I can think of a number of spots where subtle changes (like the enlargement of a green by just a few feet) greatly contributed to the drama and the entertainment value of watching the best professionals in the world tackle the golf course. I could go on for a while with examples, but for the sake of brevity I'll go with just one--the third shots at #11 by both Couples and Mickelson. If Phil lands his approach just a yard shorter, he's probably got a kick-in four. Conversely, if Freddie lands his a yard shorter, he's got no shot at a birdie and would do well not to three-putt  coming over the hump that protects the back corner. We're talking a total of two feet one way or another and it's a 2-3 shot swing. Compare that to the final-round play at #11 in the 95' PGA and 98' Senior Open...where the entertainment of watching the pros tackle the front-left pin paled in comparison to what we saw this year.

So, in conclusion, I guess the only real feeling I have about the tree removal is that I'm disappointed it isn't being done in concert with an enlargement of the back-right corner per the formula the Club has been using to make so many of the other holes more interesting to me over these past few years (e.g. #1, 3, 7, 9, 11, 12, 13 & 17). I think that doing so would change the tee shot strategy employed over four days of championship golf by the professionals at Riviera more than the current plan to change the configuration of the tee shot landing area. But, as Dennis Miller would say, that's just my opinion...I could be wrong.

-Sam 







Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: More Changes to #8 at Riviera?
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2009, 04:31:56 PM »
Guys,

I was also thinking about hole #6 while we've got the imagination machine fired up.  The old "bunker in the middle of the green" gimmick seems to have gotten a bit geriatric.  Time to freshen it up a bit with a modern twist.  How about converting that little bunker into a tiny pond?  It'd be the only one of its kind to my knowledge and we could throw a few carp in there for effect.  Whadda ya think?

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: More Changes to #8 at Riviera?
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2009, 04:43:43 PM »
Guys,

I was also thinking about hole #6 while we've got the imagination machine fired up.  The old "bunker in the middle of the green" gimmick seems to have gotten a bit geriatric.  Time to freshen it up a bit with a modern twist.  How about converting that little bunker into a tiny pond?  It'd be the only one of its kind to my knowledge and we could throw a few carp in there for effect.  Whadda ya think?

Two conditions -  concrete pond painted blue, and piranha, not carp.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: More Changes to #8 at Riviera?
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2009, 04:53:47 PM »
Bill,

I like the way your thinking here.  Then guys can place side bets on who will have the stuff to retrieve their ball when it goes into said pond. 

Think about this too...

Couer D Alene has the worlds only Floating Green. Riviera could be known the world over for the worlds only green with a pond in the middle of it.  Forget this Hogans Alley stuff, on to something better.

David Druzisky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: More Changes to #8 at Riviera?
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2009, 07:25:44 PM »
Kalen.  Blasphemy Kalen,,,blasphemy! :-*

Nice detail and thoughts from Sam.

After years of consideration I wonder if the current hole design is till not doing what Thomas had intended.  May it be that he tried to provide 3 alternatives based on player length and ability, not the two we banter around here.  The right fairway was a "middle challenge" option with deep down the left being reserved for those up to the sternest of tests - or had that ability.  If the distances in Geoff's books are directly from Thomas it appears a full drive down the right - even at that time - would have gone too far and through the fairway.  This in turn forced a little longer 2nd than if one executed fully down the left and carried the angle of the baranca on a wise line.

As for the strategy today I would need to study the green a bit more in person again.  Thomas felt that the player that hit it deep down the left was left with the best approach.  With the slopes Sam illustrates and the considerable hazard provided where the baranca pushes in to the green, a short iron from the left allows the better player to take advantage of their distance control and ball control and leave a little room for error on their left/right control.

Therefore, maybe the resistance to taking down all the trees is that it will expose the hole to some unbelievable abilities that will have an easier time going down the left than what Thomas envisioned and longer.  It may be correct because per the comment made by Lehman on Sams description.  It seems his concern is that there is no where to hit it down the left.  Not that the approach is harder from the left.

#8 - one of the many wonderful holes at Riviera worthy of endless fun discussion.

Also, how many times did the telecast show how the players had to work the ball to get in position a off the tee.  Great stuff!

DbD 

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: More Changes to #8 at Riviera?
« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2009, 10:23:07 PM »
Therefore, maybe the resistance to taking down all the trees is that it will expose the hole to some unbelievable abilities that will have an easier time going down the left than what Thomas envisioned and longer.  It may be correct because per the comment made by Lehman on Sams description.  It seems his concern is that there is no where to hit it down the left.  Not that the approach is harder from the left.

#8 - one of the many wonderful holes at Riviera worthy of endless fun discussion.

Also, how many times did the telecast show how the players had to work the ball to get in position a off the tee.  Great stuff!

DbD 

Is it possible Lehman says there is nowhere to hit the ball because all he can hit is a hook?  The combination of those trees on the right, with the Fazio tee offset to the right, and the fairway bunker left, would seem to mandate a fade off the tee to get in position, but Lehman's ball shape is always right to left.

Now Bruce Lietze on the other hand..........no problem for "Leaky!"  ;)

Sam Kestin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: More Changes to #8 at Riviera?
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2009, 04:55:26 AM »
I chuckled reading your post because I think it's more than possible that Lehman hates it on the left--the trees really do prevent you from playing the slinging draw in there. I say chuckled because I can speak to that from having a embarrassingly-lengthy personal history of hitting those trees about ten million times.

As I mentioned before, I'm a tiny fella, so the ole' rope hook is just about the only way I can hit it long enough to actually reach the occasional green in regulation...You'd think it would get me to go down the right--and it did...for the first few months I played the double-fairway edition of #8. The problem with that play was that to hit the fairway on the right I had to aim at the out-of-bounds on the right...and more often than not I chickened out and dog-hooked it in the barranca. Eventually, even the biggest of morons stops doing that after a while...so I now go left every time.

I still hit it in the trees (on both sides) all the time...but at least I can find it, it's not OB, and it's not in the barranca.

That having been said, it beats how it used to be for me before the additional fairway...when that dog hook would hit the trees forty yards off the tee box on the right and the hole was the most obnoxious 340 yard par five...
« Last Edit: February 24, 2009, 05:01:13 AM by Sam Kestin »