The Forced Carry Over Water...

[Rich Goodale]

From my limited experience in Scotland, the locals equate losing a golf ball to losing a part of one's soul.

Mike

Double-B

It's far worse than that.  Losing your golf ball is like losing your benefit check on the way to the bookies or losing your wife without having paid up the insurance.

B

[Tom Huckaby]

From my limited experience in Scotland, the locals equate losing a golf ball to losing a part of one's soul.

Mike

Double-B

It's far worse than that.  Losing your golf ball is like losing your benefit check on the way to the bookies or losing your wife without having paid up the insurance.

B

OK, someone must give kudoes here and it may as well be me.  That one got quite loud audible yuks.  Well done, Richard.

 

[Mike Bowline]

...If the final had been played at Coeur d’Alene with the island hole with the only access by boat, he NEVER would have finished....

I beg to differ. The reason he couldn't succeed at Sawgrass was that his ball flight was too low to hold the island. At Couer d'Alene all he would have had to do is land one of his tee shots in the bunker on the raft the green is built on.

So why didn't he just land his screaming-low-flying ball in the front right bunker at TPC?

Garland, you say "all he would have had to do is land one of his tee shots in the bunker on the raft the green is built on." This guy couldn't have done that if he tried 100 times.

Sigh. There is a difference between a bunker almost as wide as the green, and a bunker that is hardly there.

Yes, there is a difference in the two bunkers, but this duffer could not have hit either one of them, so your argument for how he would play the hole is moot.

[Mike Bowline]

Remember the stupid “Worst Golfer in America” contest sponsored by Golf Digest about 10 years ago?

The climactic final round was played at TPC Sawgrass, and the “winner” (the guy who shot the highest score, Anthony somebody) could not get the ball onto the green on #17 from the tee. Nor could he from the drop area – not even after about seven or eight tries.

So what did he do? He putted the ball around to the left rear access walkway and putted the ball onto the green, for a cool 47 (or something like that) score for that hole alone. If the final had been played at Coeur d’Alene with the island hole with the only access by boat, he NEVER would have finished.

Fellow CGAer Steve Salmen informs me:
In 1986 Angelo Spagnolo scored a 63 on the 17th at Sawgrass.  The path in nicknamed Angelo's Alley.

So the moral is: #1 22 years flew by and seemed like 10 years, and #2 I thought I was giving Angelo the benefit of the doubt and remembered his score as a "mid-40s" score, when it actually was a painful 63.

At least he got a landmark nicknamed in his honor.

[Garland Bayley]

...If the final had been played at Coeur d’Alene with the island hole with the only access by boat, he NEVER would have finished....

I beg to differ. The reason he couldn't succeed at Sawgrass was that his ball flight was too low to hold the island. At Couer d'Alene all he would have had to do is land one of his tee shots in the bunker on the raft the green is built on.

So why didn't he just land his screaming-low-flying ball in the front right bunker at TPC?

Garland, you say "all he would have had to do is land one of his tee shots in the bunker on the raft the green is built on." This guy couldn't have done that if he tried 100 times.

Sigh. There is a difference between a bunker almost as wide as the green, and a bunker that is hardly there.

Yes, there is a difference in the two bunkers, but this duffer could not have hit either one of them, so your argument for how he would play the hole is moot.

If the guy repeatedly hit the green, how is it that he can't hit the bunker?

[Mike Bowline]

If the guy repeatedly hit the green, how is it that he can't hit the bunker?

Which guy, and how did he repeatedly hit the green?

[Greg Chambers]

Remember the stupid “Worst Golfer in America” contest sponsored by Golf Digest about 10 years ago?

The climactic final round was played at TPC Sawgrass, and the “winner” (the guy who shot the highest score, Anthony somebody) could not get the ball onto the green on #17 from the tee. Nor could he from the drop area – not even after about seven or eight tries.

So what did he do? He putted the ball around to the left rear access walkway and putted the ball onto the green, for a cool 47 (or something like that) score for that hole alone. If the final had been played at Coeur d’Alene with the island hole with the only access by boat, he NEVER would have finished.

Fellow CGAer Steve Salmen informs me:
In 1986 Angelo Spagnolo scored a 63 on the 17th at Sawgrass.  The path in nicknamed Angelo's Alley.

So the moral is: #1 22 years flew by and seemed like 10 years, and #2 I thought I was giving Angelo the benefit of the doubt and remembered his score as a "mid-40s" score, when it actually was a painful 63.

At least he got a landmark nicknamed in his honor.

Wouldn't you have loved to be in the group following that guy...

[Anthony Gray]

  How can we get Anthony Spagnolo part of this discussion group?........AND don't say by letting him take my place.

  Anthony

[Garland Bayley]

If the guy repeatedly hit the green, how is it that he can't hit the bunker?

Which guy, and how did he repeatedly hit the green?

Angelo Spagnolo. He didn't resort to putting around by the way of the walkway because he couldn't hit the green. He did it because his ball flight was so low that none of his shots hitting the green would hold it.

[Garland Bayley]

  How can we get Anthony Spagnolo part of this discussion group?........AND don't say by letting him take my place.

  Anthony

Trust me Anthony, Angelo wouldn't like that cliff edge hole in Utah either. BTW, did I mention that at least three holes in a row there set up for the lefty slice to go over the cliff?

[Anthony Gray]

  How can we get Anthony Spagnolo part of this discussion group?........AND don't say by letting him take my place.

  Anthony

Trust me Anthony, Angelo wouldn't like that cliff edge hole in Utah either. BTW, did I mention that at least three holes in a row there set up for the lefty slice to go over the cliff?

  Anthony Spagnolo where ever you are I challange you to take on Doctor Garland Bayley to match-play at Pebble Beach. If you can get yourself there the golf is on me. Beware the course sets up perfectly for a lefty slice....except the last. By then the match would be wraped up......I hope.

  Anthony

[Matthew Rose]

I seem to recall he made a 22 on #18 as well and finished with a grand total of 257 for 18 holes.

257, good lord. Has anyone done that in 72 holes there yet?

[Steve Salmen]

Angelo was in a hackers tournament.  In the story I recall, the reason he putted his ball along the path was that it was his last ball.  I have no knowledge of his ball flight but I suspect it's players like him that caused CBM to dislike holes that you could "top" your way to the green.

[Dave_Miller]

is the bane of golf course architecture in America.

Discuss.

Double-Bogey

Mike
The East Course at Admirals Cove in Jupiter, FL has several long/forced carries over water. However the property that the course was designed on had several natural canals running through the property off the Intercoastal.
Robert Von Hagge used these natural canals when he designed the course and did a very good job.   
These canals are not the type that intersect the fairway in the driving area but for the most part require the shot to the green to carry over water.
The end result of some of this is that the effective playing length is increased.  When one looks at the yardage on the card it appears to be a relatively short course but with the canals and push up greens the course plays longer and requires a lot of strategy.
Best
Dave

[Roger Wolfe]

Any thoughts on the following water carries from the tee, with no other practical option, and from only slightly elevated tee pads?  The first number is the carry to right side of the fairway, with the better approach to par 4's green, while the second number is to the left side of the fairway, leaving a more difficult approach.  Back black tees: 244 - 234.  Next tees, blue: 224 - 214; next tees, white: 150 - 140; forward tees, green: 129 - 119.  There are six tee pads, so shorter set-ups are possible.  Here's how the course plays from each set of tees: black, 7011; blue, 6453; white, 5891; and green: 5253.

I knew you couldn't resist but you need to note the blue tees almost always reside on the "unmarked tee box" at 180-206.

[Carl Johnson]

Any thoughts on the following water carries from the tee, with no other practical option, and from only slightly elevated tee pads?  The first number is the carry to right side of the fairway, with the better approach to par 4's green, while the second number is to the left side of the fairway, leaving a more difficult approach.  Back black tees: 244 - 234.  Next tees, blue: 224 - 214; next tees, white: 150 - 140; forward tees, green: 129 - 119.  There are six tee pads, so shorter set-ups are possible.  Here's how the course plays from each set of tees: black, 7011; blue, 6453; white, 5891; and green: 5253.

I knew you couldn't resist but you need to note the blue tees almost always reside on the "unmarked tee box" at 180-206.

Mine was a purely hypthetical situation, although I did note that shorter set-ups were possible, as is almost always going to be true in hypothetical situations.  Any resemblence to an actual course is coincidental. (Wink, wink.)

[Jeff_Brauer]

Are we defining forced carry as required to reach the green or prime LZ on a fw or as a truly forced carry with no way around?  I would call the former an optional carry.

I would love to see an actual statistical analysis of how many truly forced carries there are in America. I do know its more than GBI, especially in places like Florida, where lakes are required to drain flat property.  And, most courses do seem to have a forced carry on at least one par 3 hole. 

Overall, of 16,000 courses and approximately 250,000 golf holes how many feature one forced carry? More than one?  I am guessing its far fewer than we suppose, because like Pete Dye, most gca's try to avoid them wherever possible, knowing how hard they are for average players.

Thinking back to my projects opened last year, I can count 3 on one course, 4 on another, and 5 on another, each out of 36 potential shots, and counting fairly liberally.  That's 11% of shots or 1 of 9.  Are we counting babbling brooks that cross the fw in front of the tee or beyond the landing area, or just irrigation/detention/decorative lakes?

[Brent Hutto]

My club's course is an Ellis Maples c. 1960 with the addition of a third nine a few years later. Walkable, fairly compact, old-guy-friendly, not a pushover once you get to the greens but fairly easy from tee to green on most holes. I count 10 shots over the 27 holes having some kind of forced carry. Though most of them are 100 yards or so from the front tee, some even less, a couple of them are challenging from the tournament tees.

Five of the six Par 3's have ponds in front of the tee boxes, at least on the back two sets of tees. All but two of those have forward tee boxes along the edge of the pond to avoid all or most of the carry for ladies and seniors. And the majority of the forced carries on the course have some sort of narrow, rough-filled pseudo-bailout area to one side if someone were totally chicken and didn't care about making par or bogey on the hole.

But two of the Par 5's have water the last 100 yards in front of the green and one of the Par 3's is a ANGC #12 style pond hole. That's the real, insurmountable, truly forced carries on the course. The other seven are still bodies of water to hit over, even if it's a short shot with the ball teed up.

[Carl Johnson]

Any thoughts on the following water carries from the tee, with no other practical option, and from only slightly elevated tee pads?  The first number is the carry to right side of the fairway, with the better approach to par 4's green, while the second number is to the left side of the fairway, leaving a more difficult approach.  Back black tees: 244 - 234.  Next tees, blue: 224 - 214; next tees, white: 150 - 140; forward tees, green: 129 - 119.  There are six tee pads, so shorter set-ups are possible.  Here's how the course plays from each set of tees: black, 7011; blue, 6453; white, 5891; and green: 5253.

I knew you couldn't resist but you need to note the blue tees almost always reside on the "unmarked tee box" at 180-206.

Mine was a purely hypthetical situation, although I did note that shorter set-ups were possible, as is almost always going to be true in hypothetical situations.  Any resemblence to an actual course is coincidental. (Wink, wink.)

Jeff, in my example, including with the optional blues at 180-206, I am talking about total carry right off the tee, with no practical option.  For the purpose of my example, I don't consider putting along the cart path a practical option, although with luck you might be able to do it in possibly as few as three strokes from the blues (hypothetically, of course).