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Patrick_Mucci_Jr


TEPaul

Re: Bunkers, trees & the need for clearing
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2009, 07:27:31 PM »
Patrick:

I think there are a number of photos of some of the holes of Pine Valley that do make a pretty strong case for the need to remove trees that surround their bunkers and their sightlines but that particular photo is certainly not the best of them by a long shot.

On another thread I did start on the first hole to do a hole by hole tree removal discussion but I noticed you didn't contribute to it at all. I also included in that post what Crump's two best friends down there wrote regarding what Crump wanted to do with that hole, some of which he did do and some of which he didn't live to complete.

But since this photo you posted is of the first fairway, perhaps now you are ready to have an intelligent hole by hole discussion of potential tree removal on the course. As we go hole to hole both me and others who know the course and its arcitectural history well can also point out where tree removal has already occured.

However, I do congratulate you as this thread is entitled "bunkers and trees & the need for clearing". That is both intelligent and realistic which using that 1925 aerial as a recommended complete blueprint for tree removal was not in its entirety.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 07:34:06 PM by TEPaul »

JMorgan

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Re: Bunkers, trees & the need for clearing
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2009, 07:50:59 PM »
The bunkers lining the fairway are lost to the trees when you are standing on the tee. The carry is claustrophobic beyond what was originally intended ... which I think should be more Sunningdale New, less Pete Dye.  Not noise drowning out signal.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 08:48:14 PM by JMorgan »

TEPaul

Re: Bunkers, trees & the need for clearing
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2009, 08:41:21 PM »
JMorgan:

This makes my years long point that the best tree removal goal for PV would simply be to remove all the trees SURROUNDING or in the sightlines of the existing bunkers.

That photograph does not show much of the bunkering on that hole and those ones down the left side were decidedly temporary and actually were installed to serve another interesting purpose. Crump had a plan for left side bunkers on that hole that he never lived to do, or so it is written by the two men closest to him down there then.

JMorgan

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Re: Bunkers, trees & the need for clearing
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2009, 08:56:13 PM »
From the tee, the surrounding trees smother out all information in one's passive peripheral and active central vision.  I don't think that is what Colt and Crump had in mind.  Colt wasn't keen on obfuscation, beyond the occasional blind shot, and especially where it concerned bunkers. 

TEPaul

Re: Bunkers, trees & the need for clearing
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2009, 09:03:36 PM »
JMorgan:

I don't really know what Colt had in mind for Pine Valley because he didn't exactly leave a record of what he wanted on that course other than that hole by hole booklet from May/June 1913 and his notations in it. And then it does not look like he ever returned again to PV and never again to America after 1914. But I sure do know what the best record extant of what Crump wanted says and in some pretty interesting hole by hole detail.

JSlonis

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Re: Bunkers, trees & the need for clearing
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2009, 09:57:05 PM »
The aerial that Pat posted is of the 4th hole not the 1st.  Those are the bunkers that are located to the left of the fairway.



« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 10:16:41 PM by JSlonis »

JMorgan

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Re: Bunkers, trees & the need for clearing
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2009, 09:57:19 PM »
I call upon my too often in absentia and sometimes NYC pen pal/new father Paul Turner to provide some details herewith.

Otherwise I go on what I've studied of Colt and what I've witnessed at Pine Valley, gracious host that she is.

JMorgan

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Re: Bunkers, trees & the need for clearing
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2009, 10:01:01 PM »
The aerial that Pat posted is of the 4th hole not the 1st.  Those are the bunkers that are located to the left of the fairway.

Here is a good shot of the inside right of #1:



Jamie, are you snorting glue again?  Pat posted a nice view of the second tee at Pine Valley.  Where are you, the Spectrum?  JC, I have to drive down to Montgomery County again and set the world straight?  Or is it Chester County, young man? Just because the Phillies won the Series doesn't make you God.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 10:05:40 PM by JMorgan »

JSlonis

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Re: Bunkers, trees & the need for clearing
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2009, 10:16:16 PM »
The aerial that Pat posted is of the 4th hole not the 1st.  Those are the bunkers that are located to the left of the fairway.

Here is a good shot of the inside right of #1:



Jamie, are you snorting glue again?  Pat posted a nice view of the second tee at Pine Valley.  Where are you, the Spectrum?  JC, I have to drive down to Montgomery County again and set the world straight?  Or is it Chester County, young man? Just because the Phillies won the Series doesn't make you God.

 ??? ??? ???

I'm not sure I understand your post or what you are implying.  The link that Pat posted comes up as the left side of the 4th fairway when I click on it. Perhaps you can explain?  Glue sniffing?  What is there to set straight?

I've deleted the view of the first that I posted above.  It's a bit dated because there have been several trees removed from the right side of #1 since that aerial.

Here's a better view:

http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCP&cp=qmysw28rk0m7&style=b&lvl=1&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=22509975&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1
« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 10:29:12 PM by JSlonis »

JMorgan

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Re: Bunkers, trees & the need for clearing
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2009, 10:31:19 PM »
The aerial that Pat posted is of the 4th hole not the 1st.  Those are the bunkers that are located to the left of the fairway.

Here is a good shot of the inside right of #1:



Jamie, are you snorting glue again?  Pat posted a nice view of the second tee at Pine Valley.  Where are you, the Spectrum?  JC, I have to drive down to Montgomery County again and set the world straight?  Or is it Chester County, young man? Just because the Phillies won the Series doesn't make you God.

 ??? ??? ???

I'm not sure I understand your post or what you are implying.  The link that Pat posted comes up as the left side of the 4th fairway when I click on it. Perhaps you can explain?

I've deleted the view of the first that I posted above.  It's a bit dated because there have been several trees removed from the right side of #1 since that aerial.

Here's a better view:

http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCP&cp=qmysw28rk0m7&style=b&lvl=1&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=22509975&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1


Que es esto?  Jamie, Pat posted a shot of #2.  How is it you do so well on the course?

JSlonis

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Re: Bunkers, trees & the need for clearing
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2009, 10:39:21 PM »
You're telling me that this link shows a shot of #2 ?

http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCP&cp=qmyh128rjyc6&style=b&lvl=2&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=22509997&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1


Not on my computer it doesn't.  It clearly shows the bunkers that are found off the left side of the 4th fairway.

I don't need a lecture on an aerial view of PV. I think I would know what I'm looking at.

Pat wouldn't refer to the 2nd hole to make a case for tree removal.  There was quite a bit of tree removal already done on #2 several years ago.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 10:47:08 PM by JSlonis »

SPDB

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Re: Bunkers, trees & the need for clearing
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2009, 11:02:57 PM »
JMorgan:
The aerial Pat posted a link to is most assuredly #4 taken from a perspective that looks to be about 1000 feet above the 6th fairway and I agree with Tom that #4 is not the "strongest case for widespread tree removal." There is a substantial drop off to the left of the high point of #4 fairway - I don't think its likely, but I wonder if there is some stabilizing component to the trees there (similar to the trees behind 9 left green).

Plus tree clearing at least on the right, would make this drive (which is already one of the largest landing areas on the course) substantially easier. As it stands now, the best drives are those that flirt with the tree line on the right.

My favorite example of encroachment is #15. They've done a pretty good job of thinning out the area on the left of the green (below the 12th hole); and getting rid of the trees pat cited on the right would also be a big improvement, but it never ceases to amaze when I am walking up the 15th and there just off the fairway is a bunker, completely blocked and emasculated by a couple of fir trees. Granted the bunker is not critically positioned, but it always makes me wonder what the thought process was in planting these trees.

Check it out - it always makes me chuckle.

http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCC&cp=qmxty08rkhpx&style=b&lvl=2&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=22510208&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1

JMorgan

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Re: Bunkers, trees & the need for clearing
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2009, 11:05:21 PM »
Yes, you are correct.  Hold on, let me find what I've been talking about...

If you pan up, that's 2.  My browser opened up on the view looking down from the 2nd green to the tee.

I don't think the trees on 4 make a difference.  You're playing up the hill blind and right.

« Last Edit: February 18, 2009, 11:30:43 AM by JMorgan »

JSlonis

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Re: Bunkers, trees & the need for clearing
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2009, 11:07:44 PM »
Hmmmm...I'm smelling an apology. ;D  In English and Spanish. ;)

SPDB,

The trees by the bunkers left of #4 have no stabilizing purpose.

JMorgan,

Those trees and bunkers on the left do make a difference because tee shots that are tugged left tend to find that area due to the slope of the fairway over the crest of that hill.


« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 11:18:54 PM by JSlonis »

JMorgan

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Re: Bunkers, trees & the need for clearing
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2009, 11:09:45 PM »
 :-*

TEPaul

Re: Bunkers, trees & the need for clearing
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2009, 11:28:46 PM »
"The aerial that Pat posted is of the 4th hole not the 1st.  Those are the bunkers that are located to the left of the fairway."

Jamie:

So it probably is, and that troubles me for a number of reasons! I'll explain in detail later.

But for now, there are a bunch or really interesting bunkers on the left side of #4 (not so much so on the left of #1) but most of the most interesting ones are over the hill sort of out of sight of that photo Pat posted. But from the tee compared to the look of the short left side way back when and today the closing in with trees it pretty extreme but the problem is #2 green is really close for a severely hooked drive off #4 to be able to do much with tree clearing on that shortish left side.

If Colt had gotten his way with the placement of the 2nd green this kind of thing would be a virtual disaster today on #4.

Crump's famous response to Colt's 2nd green placement alteration--ie "NO GOOD" is super prescient---to say the least!

« Last Edit: February 18, 2009, 07:55:01 AM by TEPaul »

Sean Leary

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Re: Bunkers, trees & the need for clearing
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2009, 12:00:30 PM »
This may be a silly question but is the encroachment of trees due to additional planting or natural growth? Obviously the tree that SPDB showed was planted but the others that line the borders of the holes?

I am interested in seeing how the new tee on 4 works out and how it changes the hole. I spoke with a PV member the other day, and he was unaware of that new tee being implemented. He has been a member for 20+ years and had trouble figuring out where it was going to be located...

TEPaul

Re: Bunkers, trees & the need for clearing
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2009, 05:06:40 PM »
"This may be a silly question but is the encroachment of trees due to additional planting or natural growth? Obviously the tree that SPDB showed was planted but the others that line the borders of the holes?"


Sean Leary:

I could actually answer that for you in some detail but the only problem is I might have to kill you. But if you really want to know just ask away, but not on here. As far as the new back tee on #4 all I can tell you is it looks a lot different from down there looking back up than you think it will when looking from say the present tee down at that new tee area.



"Granted the bunker is not critically positioned, but it always makes me wonder what the thought process was in planting these trees."


SPDB:

If I'm understanding just which trees you're talking about I think the thought process of why they were planted is fairly obvious-----ie the ideal play off the tee on that hole is to just skirt the left edge of the fairway. If you hit the ball even into the middle it does work right a little and if you hit it on the right of the fairway it works right and almost off pretty fast. I guess some felt getting the ball way over on the right off the tee was not much of a play or strategy and so they intended to put even more pressure on a second shot by forcing it farther left to get around those trees. You pretty much need to hit a real fade if you want any distance from down there on the right. Believe me I do know.  ;)
« Last Edit: February 18, 2009, 05:14:17 PM by TEPaul »

Sean Leary

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Re: Bunkers, trees & the need for clearing
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2009, 06:51:42 PM »
"This may be a silly question but is the encroachment of trees due to additional planting or natural growth? Obviously the tree that SPDB showed was planted but the others that line the borders of the holes?"


Sean Leary:

I could actually answer that for you in some detail but the only problem is I might have to kill you. But if you really want to know just ask away, but not on here. As far as the new back tee on #4 all I can tell you is it looks a lot different from down there looking back up than you think it will when looking from say the present tee down at that new tee area.



"Granted the bunker is not critically positioned, but it always makes me wonder what the thought process was in planting these trees."


SPDB:

If I'm understanding just which trees you're talking about I think the thought process of why they were planted is fairly obvious-----ie the ideal play off the tee on that hole is to just skirt the left edge of the fairway. If you hit the ball even into the middle it does work right a little and if you hit it on the right of the fairway it works right and almost off pretty fast. I guess some felt getting the ball way over on the right off the tee was not much of a play or strategy and so they intended to put even more pressure on a second shot by forcing it farther left to get around those trees. You pretty much need to hit a real fade if you want any distance from down there on the right. Believe me I do know.  ;)


How much length is it adding? If it is down what will be the effective added distance be?

TEPaul

Re: Bunkers, trees & the need for clearing
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2009, 07:01:28 PM »
Sean:

If you mean the new 4th tee and they're putting it where it was staked a few years ago it looks to me like around 50 yards and then you have to consider it's lower down there than the present tee.

I think what they'd like to accomplish on that tee shot is what the likes of Crump and Fownes wanted to accomplish on that hole which was that even good players should pretty much be approaching that green from the top of the fairway, or so it is written in the archival material.

JMorgan

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Re: Bunkers, trees & the need for clearing
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2009, 12:35:41 PM »
Forgot about this photo (ca.1933) ... what a contrast! 


Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re: Bunkers, trees & the need for clearing
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2009, 05:37:59 PM »

SPDB:

If I'm understanding just which trees you're talking about I think the thought process of why they were planted is fairly obvious-----ie the ideal play off the tee on that hole is to just skirt the left edge of the fairway.

TEPaul,

And you cite that as a bona fide reason for planting those trees ?
That's both absurd and outrageous


If you hit the ball even into the middle it does work right a little and if you hit it on the right of the fairway it works right and almost off pretty fast.

What's that got to do with anything ?


I guess some felt getting the ball way over on the right off the tee was not much of a play or strategy and so they intended to put even more pressure on a second shot by forcing it farther left to get around those trees.

Who are the "some" you refer to ?

And, what kind of absurd architectural logic reaches that conclusion.

You continue to be an apologist for design errors, either intentional or unintentional, at PV.
WHY ?
Why can't you view these issues from an "arms length" or independent perspective ?

No matter what the issue, you defend every action or inaction at PV.
I more than anyone appreciate loyalty, but, you're carrying it to levels beyond common sense.

You should follow Polonius's advice to his son Laertes. ;D


You pretty much need to hit a real fade if you want any distance from down there on the right. Believe me I do know.  ;)

What does that have to do with eradicating the effects of the bunker by inserting new plantings around it and allowing trees/shrubs/underbrush to over grow it ?



John Gosselin

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Re: Bunkers, trees & the need for clearing
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2009, 08:58:36 AM »
While a student at Penn State I remember EB Steiniger being a guest speaker. He showed a wonderful slide show of his years at PV. The one thing that stands out to me still to this day(23 years later) the number of trees and other shrub type plant material the he and Mr. Brown planted.

I remember him describing the isolation they created from one whole to another. They were true pioneers that may have started this trend in screening each hole. Now that the trees have matured and additional volunteer plants have also moved in I wonder if they would be champion the cause to push those secondary tree lines back to expose all that wonderful architecture. I bet they would.

For those of you who don't know who Eb Steiniger was, below is a little history.

Eberhard Steiniger
“I spent over sixty years in turf management and field research, and I enjoyed every minute and every year of it.”

 
Those simple words of Eberhard “Eb” Rudolf Steiniger in a 1993 interview sum up an illustrious career filled with accomplishments as well as lifelong friendships. Steiniger, who served for over fifty years as golf course superintendent at the Pine Valley Golf Club in New Jersey, was instrumental in the beginnings of Penn State's turfgrass management program. He was part of the group who pushed for turfgrass research funding at Penn State in the late 1920s, and throughout his career collaborated with faculty members H.B. Musser and Fred Grau, as well as others, on development of turfgrasses.

Born and educated in Germany, Steiniger immigrated to the United States in 1926. “A year after I came here,” said Eb, “I saw my first golf course—at Lakeville Country Club in Long Island. The people I was working for were members of that club, and when they took me out to show it to me and I saw this beautiful landscaping and this huge, beautiful piece of turf in front of the clubhouse, I thought, This is for me. And that's where my career in golf course work started.”

“I asked the greenkeeper to hire me, and he did,” Eb continued. “Ayear later, he left for Pine Valley and brought me along. He stayed two years at Pine Valley, and when he left in 1931, I became in charge of the course. I worked directly under the president of the club, John Arthur Brown. That was an unusual situation. And the team of John Arthur Brown and Eb Steiniger lasted over fifty years.” After Brown's death, Steiniger worked six more years at Pine Valley until his retirement in the early 1980s.

While at Pine Valley, Steiniger established a large practice range that included turf nurseries and ten acres of research plots, as well as a helicopter landing pad. “We had any kind of turf that people would bring me,” he said. “And every now and then Burt Musser would sneak over to New Jersey and visit me. I worked closely with Burt.”

Steiniger traveled extensively during his career and often brought back plants to introduce to his research plots at Pine Valley. He helped develop C-7 Cohansey creeping bentgrass, which is found on many golf courses today.

Steiniger also had a role in developing numerous pieces of turfgrass maintenance equipment. He and his lifelong friend Tom Mascaro were “the perfect marriage of innovator and inventor,” said Thomas Watschke, professor of turfgrass science, at the August 1994 dedication of the Penn State Mascaro/Steiniger Turfgrass Equipment Museum. “Tom would invent and prototype pieces of equipment at the urging of Eb, and they'd try them out at Pine Valley. If it didn't work, it was back to the drawing board, back to the metal shop to rework, redesign, redevelop.”

Steiniger's pride in Pine Valley was well known and well deserved—the club features one of the top golf courses in the world. “Pine Valley is a unique place,” says Watschke. “It's gorgeously manicured where it should be, and neglected otherwise. The contrast is stunning. It's such a prestigious club, there are members from all over the world, some who don't even play golf. Eb told me a story once: There was a group of guys from the U.K.—an Irish guy, a Scot, and two from England—who traveled the world playing golf, and every year one of their stops was Pine Valley. During one visit one of them said, ‘Mr. Steiniger, I'd like to pay you a compliment.’ And he said three words: ‘This is it.’ He played all over the world, every year, and Pine Valley was it. Eb told me that was the nicest compliment he ever received.”

I spent over sixty years in turf management and field research, and I enjoyed every minute and every year of it.
Steiniger remained a friend of Penn State throughout his career. He attended his first Turfgrass Conference for Greenkeepers on campus in 1928 and was a faithful attendee thereafter. “Back then, there was very little information available that would help us grow healthy grass,” he said in 1993. “So each and every year I looked forward to going to the Penn State Conference and took great pride in seeing it grow into one of the finest conferences and turf schools in the nation.”

A popular figure at conferences, Steiniger enjoyed the people every bit as much as the education. Says his friend Stan Zontek, director of the USGA Green Section, Mid-Atlantic Region, “At conventions and conferences, superintendents and students alike would gather in hotel rooms and hospitality suites to hear veterans like Eb tell stories. You listened, you learned, and you laughed. And when you went back to work, those tidbits of advice and insights influenced how you did your job.”

Steiniger served as president of the Pennsylvania Turfgrass Council in 1970 and 1971, and he served as president of the Pennsylvania Golf Course Superintendent's Association. He was also director of Penn Stat's Musser Internatonal Turfgrass Foundation and O.J. Noer Turf Research Council and chairman of the Joseph Valentine Research Center.

Those who knew Eb Steiniger can't seem to say enough good things about him. “He was one of the nicest guys you could ever meet—a real fun-loving guy,” says Richie Valentine, turfgrass consultant and son of Joseph Valentine. “He had that German accent that you always recognized. I never heard him say a bad word about anybody. He was something else.” Adds Watschke, “He was a charming fellow, a real gentleman.”

Steiniger passed away in April 2002, at the age of 96. The late George Hamilton shared a few words at his funeral: “Eb's respect and kindness towards everyone was unsurpassed. He and his family were present in August 1994, when we dedicated the Penn State Mascaro/Steiniger Turfgrass Equipment Museum. To Eb, the excitement of the day wasn't about the building with his name on it. It wasn't about the vast array of equipment in the building. It was about the people. Being together with his family, his good friend Tom Mascaro, and others was the big event. I think it's safe to say that Eb loved people more than any other part of life.”

That's evident in this note, which Steiniger wrote to Fred Grau in 1973:

Dear Fred,

Here is my check for $100.00 for my sustaining membership in the PTC. I am just so glad to send this as long as I can afford it. I will never be able to repay Pennsylvania State University for what they've done for me. I always will be indebted to them for giving me knowledge, guidance, for helping me in my career, and for the wonderful friends I made.

P.V. was never prettier this spring. John Arthur is still going strong, but he needs me a lot.

Gratefully yours,
Old Eb

Great golf course architects, like great poets, are born, note made.
Meditations of a Peripatetic Golfer 1922

Paul Nash

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Re: Bunkers, trees & the need for clearing
« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2009, 05:36:37 AM »
It looks a fantastic looking course - never seen it like this - I will have to change from Google Maps! Although it does look as if it would be improved significantly if they cut things back and exposed the scrub areas. It is even hard to see some of the teeing areas. They have done similar tree clearances at Hankley Common and Hindhead and, although I hadn't played them before, they are wonderful now and everyone who comments says that they are significantly improved.

Do you have to cross the railway to go into the club? It looks like you do - the only other club I have seen this on is Swinley Forest - ant the terrain looks quite similar.

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