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Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sifford Exemption
« Reply #25 on: February 17, 2009, 07:48:32 PM »
Well...African Americans earn less than whites...African Americans do not live as long as whites....African Americans are a majority in our prisons....the list goes on and on...you don't have to call it racism...but don't claim everything is OK because Obama was elected President.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Mike Sweeney

Re: Sifford Exemption
« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2009, 07:57:25 PM »
From The Onion:

“Black Man Given Nation’s Worst Job”

WASHINGTON—African-American man Barack Obama, 47, was given the least-desirable job in the entire country Tuesday when he was elected president of the United States of America. In his new high-stress, low-reward position, Obama will be charged with such tasks as completely overhauling the nation’s broken-down economy, repairing the crumbling infrastructure, and generally having to please more than 300 million Americans and cater to their every whim on a daily basis. As part of his duties, the black man will have to spend four to eight years cleaning up the messes other people left behind. The job comes with such intense scrutiny and so certain a guarantee of failure that only one other person even bothered applying for it. Said scholar and activist Mark L. Denton, “It just goes to show you that, in this country, a black man still can’t catch a break.”

Gib_Papazian

Re: Sifford Exemption
« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2009, 08:03:07 PM »
Craig,

How much of that is self-inflicted? Have a look at what the esteemed Bill Cosby has to say. Back when racism was alive and well - the darkest period of our nation's history - was there a terrible illegitimacy problem? No.

Those kids are in prison and the schools are a mess and the neighborhoods are a war zone because a bunch of scumbag rappers have sold young black kids on the idea that indiscriminate breeding and gun wielding irresponsibility are how you express your manhood.

We don't need affirmative action, because racism and oppression are fading away. What we need is for black men to have the juevos to take back their neighborhoods from a bunch of punks and make sure they stay in line.    

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sifford Exemption
« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2009, 10:08:44 PM »
As for the ethnic, gender or whatever composition of our rating panel, I have no idea. We have no way of finding out and I would have no interest in knowing since it's irrelevant. We take all sorts of folks on as raters, as long as they are keen on golf course design and willing to act like ladies and gentlemen.

BSK

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sifford Exemption
« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2009, 11:01:51 PM »
Gib,

I used to run into Charlie Sifford quite often when I was living in Cleveland and he was the pro at Sleppy Hollow in Brecksville, a fine Cleveland Metro Parks course. Charlie's wife was a warm, kind and modest person who greeted nearly everyone who played while she took green fees. I always had the impression she was the best thing that happened to him. Not burdened by racism like Charlie she seemed to accept the world for what it was and just wanted to support her husband. But, Charlie, well' it did seem clear that his experiences had taken a toll. I always wanted to express my respect,but never felt like I knew the right words. Charlie grew up in a different world than Tiger and the human cost in terms of his spirit showed itself rather strongly.
Tim Weiman

Jim Nugent

Re: Sifford Exemption
« Reply #30 on: February 17, 2009, 11:40:27 PM »
Just a week or so I also saw an old KKK'er apologizing on TV to John Lewis  for the beating he gave Lewis many years ago.

These events show us how far we've come, and where we are coming from. There is surely no harm in doing either one.  

Heck, there's a much more prominent example of that.  Robert Byrd, U.S. Senator from West Virginia for 50 years, used to be a leader in the KKK.  In 1944, e.g., he wrote,

"I shall never fight in the armed forces with a Negro by my side... Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds."

A few years later, Byrd said, "The Klan is needed today as never before and I am anxious to see its rebirth here in West Virginia and in every state in the nation."

Yet in 2008 he supported Barack Obama for president. 

Clear signs of progress.   ::)

Jim Nugent

Re: Sifford Exemption
« Reply #31 on: February 17, 2009, 11:42:09 PM »
As for the ethnic, gender or whatever composition of our rating panel, I have no idea. We have no way of finding out and I would have no interest in knowing since it's irrelevant. We take all sorts of folks on as raters, as long as they are keen on golf course design and willing to act like ladies and gentlemen.

BSK

Brad, what is your solution to the racism you discussed in your earlier post? 

Gib_Papazian

Re: Sifford Exemption
« Reply #32 on: February 18, 2009, 02:28:07 AM »
Brad Klein! I am going to shriek "bullshit."

Are you actually going to try and pawn off that response as the truth?

My personal information is years dated, so I'll keep my fingers quiet, but do any GolfWeek raters on this board recall meeting any African Americans on your panel? 

The over & under is five total.

As for Charlie Sifford, I'm told he was quite a peach.

Maybe they ought to rename the exemption for Charlie Owens instead.   

 

Mike Sweeney

Re: Sifford Exemption
« Reply #33 on: February 18, 2009, 05:59:57 AM »

Are you actually going to try and pawn off that response as the truth?

My personal information is years dated, so I'll keep my fingers quiet, but do any GolfWeek raters on this board recall meeting any African Americans on your panel? 

The over & under is five total.
 

Gib,

That over and under would appear to be about 3 or 4 more than the number of black guys on GCA.com, so Ran and Ben must be really prejudiced OR maybe guys that are into golf course architecture are a bunch of geeks that no self-respecting black guy would be seen with!

Goodness knows we have driven all the women away!

Daniel_Wexler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sifford Exemption
« Reply #34 on: February 18, 2009, 06:03:53 AM »
They should re-name the exemption for Bill Spiller, who qualified his way into the L.A. Open as early as 1945, who was (along with the great Ted Rhodes) the real Jackie Robinson of professional golf, and who's appeal to California Attorney General Stanley Mosk ultimately led to the demise of the PGA of America's Caucasians-only clause -- a crucial point in danger of being forgotten since Charlie Sifford has regularly attempted to re-write its history since Spiller's death.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sifford Exemption
« Reply #35 on: February 18, 2009, 07:24:10 AM »
I'm going to have to tread really carefully here and I'll make clear that my experience of US society is based on business and holiday visits alone. 

It is clear that US society has made enormous strides towards equality in the past 5 decades.  To suggest, however, that racism no longer exists, or that racial prejudice no longer means that people of colour have less opportunity than whites is, frankly to hide from the facts.  I have experienced talking to white Americans who see nothing wrong in expressing openly racist views and some of those have been well educated professionals.  I'm sure that the inhabitants of the slums that pass for cities in some Native American reservations would also take issue with that proposal.  That's not a surprise and I find exactly the same thing in the UK.  I suspect, in fact, that the UK is now worse than the US in terms of inherent racism and lack of equal opportunity.  Continental Europe has similar problems, indeed overt racist baiting of sportsmen still appears acceptable in Spain, something that even in the UK died out in the '80s.

Let's be clear, society is moving in the right direction (though the anti Arab bigotry sadly aggravated by the activities of Al Quaeda and their like shows how fragile that movement is) but to dismiss racism as a problem of the past is to ignore the facts and risk the loss of that momentum.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sifford Exemption
« Reply #36 on: February 18, 2009, 09:12:21 AM »
Gib....

I think we (whites) want to believe a lot of that is "self inflicted"....but I'm not so sure...for example...unlike white's  African Americans do not enjoy a 300 year advantage of accumulating and passing along wealth.  And it is not necessarily great wealth that I am talking about...generations of white families have attended school....generations have attended college, on middle class incomes....generations have grown up in family owned housing.

I see little of this as being self inflicted, but rather a result of 200 plus year of slavery.....not to mention you and I can't sit around and talk about how our ancestors were forced into coming to America.....in fact, you can probably tell an excellent story of immigration and success.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Gib_Papazian

Re: Sifford Exemption
« Reply #37 on: February 18, 2009, 11:07:01 AM »
Craig,

All four of my grandparents and their families were run out of Armenia and Turkey at gunpoint by crazy Muslims. They came to America with nary a penny in their pocket, speaking zero English.

Your point might have merit if my last name was Carnegie or Annandale and we came over on the Mayflower.

There are enormous opportunities in America for everybody. The African American contractor who built our home was raised in the ghetto. The difference is that his father made sure he went to school and stayed away from bad kids.

Now this guy builds luxury homes in the highest rent area of Northern California - and he is barely 40 years old!

Who is zoomin' who here?

Jim Nugent

Re: Sifford Exemption
« Reply #38 on: February 18, 2009, 02:03:28 PM »

All four of my grandparents and their families were run out of Armenia and Turkey at gunpoint by crazy Muslims. They came to America with nary a penny in their pocket, speaking zero English.


They were among the lucky ones, weren't they?  The Turkish massacre of Armenians is one of history's worst genocides. 

In college I had a good friend who was Turkish.  Real nice guy.  One day I asked him about what happened with the Armenians.  He was saddened, and apologetic, but I never forgot his bottom line: "It was us or them." 

Gib_Papazian

Re: Sifford Exemption
« Reply #39 on: February 18, 2009, 02:40:40 PM »
Totally off the topic of Golf Architecture, or even Charlie Cigar, but your Turkish friend making a statement like that is the same as Hitler saying "It was us or the Jews."

As if Armenians (or Jews for that matter) brought anything but honor and an industrious work ethic to Turkey and Germany. It is sickening what Turkish kids are taught.

One of my fraternity brothers was also Turkish and hearing the revisionist history he was taught by his family about the genocide was enough to make both of us puke.

In truth, Jews and Armenians are quite similar - maybe that is why lower intellects sought to erase us from the planet.

The difference, of course, is that every school kid in America is taught about the Holocaust. The Armenian Genocide is little more than a footnote; in fact, my stepson has no idea how to find Turkey or Armenia on a map, let alone any sense of Muslim slaughters against Christian Armenians.

"Who remembers the Armenians?"
-Adolph Hitler (When asked by his generals how he planned to exterminate millions of Jews)
 

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sifford Exemption
« Reply #40 on: February 18, 2009, 05:23:45 PM »
Gib...

No question the opportunity here in America...I guess what I was trying to get across is for the most part, white's, regardless of where they came from and the financial conditions they arrived under, have a long history of success, whereas blacks in America only have to go back a century to encounter ancestors that were slaves...the progress that blacks have made in America, though still behind that of most whites, is testament to the opportunity here.

I think you can find white families where generations have attended college....the same can not be said for black families.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sifford Exemption
« Reply #41 on: February 18, 2009, 05:52:23 PM »
I think this guy makes some good points about the current state of race relations in the U.S.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090218/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/holder_race

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sifford Exemption
« Reply #42 on: February 18, 2009, 06:06:27 PM »
Yep, calling everyone cowards does wonders toward advancing racial harmony...
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sifford Exemption
« Reply #43 on: February 18, 2009, 06:54:39 PM »
Gib,
Your last post brought on a Kingston Trio moment, it's like Deja Vu all over again:

They're rioting in Africa
They're starving in Spain
There's hurricanes in Florida
And Texas needs rain.

The whole world is festering
With unhappy souls
The French hate the Germans,
The Germans hate the Poles

Italians hate Yugoslavs
South Africans hate the Dutch
And I don't like anybody very much

But we can be grateful
And thankful and proud
That man's been endowed
With a mushroom shaped cloud

And we know for certain
That some happy day
Someone will set the spark off
And we will all be blown away

They're rioting in Africa
There's strife in Iran
What nature doesn't do to us
Will be done by our fellow man



Merde! :(
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sifford Exemption
« Reply #44 on: February 18, 2009, 06:55:25 PM »
Gib

What do you want from this thread?  People give their opinions to you based on experience and you don't accept it.  OK, I disagree with you, but that doesn't mean I don't understand that loads of stupid shit goes on in the name of anti-discrimination.  The entire deal with that female golf presenter and what she said about lynching is a case in point.  I don't buy for a minute she was being racist, but a shit storm happened because of it.  The anti arab stuff around this recent debacle of a war is another case in point.  These situations in and of themselves tell me that we still have some way to go before we are all comfortable with all creeds, races and religions.  

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sifford Exemption
« Reply #45 on: February 19, 2009, 07:46:17 AM »

I found the new AG speech and especially his phrase "nation of cowards" disappointing.  First it was Obama won't win because we are a racist nation. Then as he had a comfortably lead in the polls, it was "well, if he doesn't win its because we are a nation of racists". Now its were a nation of cowards.  Not exactly the stuff of hope, change and moving on.

I believe that the majority of Americans don't give much thought to racism, one because we are so caught up with our own lives and families that nobody has time and two because no one even cares. Yes, there is racism, sexism, etc. in the United States (and every other country in the world) but it is not who we are as a nation. It is a tool of the weak, of certain political ideologies and it keeps people like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson  in the news.

Most Americans don't wake up in the morning thinking how am I going to oppress the (insert your favorite oppressed group here) today?

I wonder what white guys the new AG is going to hang  out with this weekend so they can dialogue.



Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sifford Exemption
« Reply #46 on: February 19, 2009, 11:12:57 AM »
Sean,

I can't speak for Gib, but I think that his has been an attempt to correct the record, not necessarily to convince those who can't be convinced regardless of the evidence.  By the way, I largely agree with Gib and have previously offered my own immigrant experience as corraboration.

An immutable aspect of human nature is that we tend to like and associate with people like ourselves.  There probably is not a more diverse setting in the U.S. than southern CA.  Yet one of the things that I noticed in my two years there is just how insular and rather impersonal the place is.  Making eye contact and exchanging pleasantries is just not done.  This was noted in a recent study by UCLA which concluded that in the midst of such a hodgepodge, the various races and cultures were mostly segregated; able to live closely together physically but not socially.

Brad Klein is also right.  There is considerable discrimination still, and opportunities are hardly equal.  Having spent considerable time in the inner cities of Columbus and Dallas working with disadvantaged kids, I 've seen this first hand.  It is a daunting task for many of these kids to survive their situation and pull themselves out of it.  I suspect that Brad and I hold quite different positions on how best to help them better their conditions.

I do know a number of white men who hold racist views.  Some are reluctant to hire black males in blue collar jobs, but readily seek Hispanics.  Not a single one has a pathological problem with skin pigmentation.  Instead, their issue is one of culture and values.  Is it unfair for them to generalize?  Yes it is.  Are they cowards as the new AG suggests?  Absolutely not.  They just have better things to do in their estimation than to spend their limited amount of time on things that a) they are not likely to change, and b) that detract from their ability to make the payroll.

I once played golf with a black man who moved to NYC from the Caribbean as a child.  He was a software salesman who travelled the world.  In fact, he had just returned from Paris when I met him, having spent a few days as a guest of a French family he met while vacationing in Martinique.

Not being a coward myself (on a race relations or a variety of OT) and playing as a twosome (at Key Biscayne GC) on a slow day, I had to ask him how he overcame racism to become so successful and seemingly perfectly comfortable with the variety of people he came across in his work and travels.  He simply said that he never thought in those terms.  His single mother was poor, he delivered newspapers and had odd jobs growing up to help make ends meet, and they never had the luxury to think about who was oppressing them.  His point of view was that they were not poor, and in comparison to where they came from, they were actually very well off.

He did opine that though he was of similar origin as American blacks- his ancestors too were slaves in a country where that institution was more savage than even here- he was not raised in an environment where he was constantly bombarded by his family, elders, and peers with the highly destructive rhetoric that breeds feelings of inferiority and the futility of action.  Somehow he had escaped the gospel of despair and dependence preached by the poverty pimps.  He did not express a great deal of sympathy for his American brothers, and was verbally hostile to people like the Rev. Jackson.

The bottom line is that those who long for an utopia where all the races and cultures will set aside their differences, hold hands, and sing "We Are The World" will be terribly disappointed.  From Epictetus  "He is a wise man who does not grieve for the things which he has not, but rejoices for those which he has."  Despite all our shortcomings, we continue to take baby steps, mostly in the right direction. 

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sifford Exemption
« Reply #47 on: February 19, 2009, 11:30:35 AM »
Sean,

I can't speak for Gib, but I think that his has been an attempt to correct the record, not necessarily to convince those who can't be convinced regardless of the evidence.  By the way, I largely agree with Gib and have previously offered my own immigrant experience as corraboration.

An immutable aspect of human nature is that we tend to like and associate with people like ourselves.  There probably is not a more diverse setting in the U.S. than southern CA.  Yet one of the things that I noticed in my two years there is just how insular and rather impersonal the place is.  Making eye contact and exchanging pleasantries is just not done.  This was noted in a recent study by UCLA which concluded that in the midst of such a hodgepodge, the various races and cultures were mostly segregated; able to live closely together physically but not socially.

Brad Klein is also right.  There is considerable discrimination still, and opportunities are hardly equal.  Having spent considerable time in the inner cities of Columbus and Dallas working with disadvantaged kids, I 've seen this first hand.  It is a daunting task for many of these kids to survive their situation and pull themselves out of it.  I suspect that Brad and I hold quite different positions on how best to help them better their conditions.

I do know a number of white men who hold racist views.  Some are reluctant to hire black males in blue collar jobs, but readily seek Hispanics.  Not a single one has a pathological problem with skin pigmentation.  Instead, their issue is one of culture and values.  Is it unfair for them to generalize?  Yes it is.  Are they cowards as the new AG suggests?  Absolutely not.  They just have better things to do in their estimation than to spend their limited amount of time on things that a) they are not likely to change, and b) that detract from their ability to make the payroll.

I once played golf with a black man who moved to NYC from the Caribbean as a child.  He was a software salesman who travelled the world.  In fact, he had just returned from Paris when I met him, having spent a few days as a guest of a French family he met while vacationing in Martinique.

Not being a coward myself (on a race relations or a variety of OT) and playing as a twosome (at Key Biscayne GC) on a slow day, I had to ask him how he overcame racism to become so successful and seemingly perfectly comfortable with the variety of people he came across in his work and travels.  He simply said that he never thought in those terms.  His single mother was poor, he delivered newspapers and had odd jobs growing up to help make ends meet, and they never had the luxury to think about who was oppressing them.  His point of view was that they were not poor, and in comparison to where they came from, they were actually very well off.

He did opine that though he was of similar origin as American blacks- his ancestors too were slaves in a country where that institution was more savage than even here- he was not raised in an environment where he was constantly bombarded by his family, elders, and peers with the highly destructive rhetoric that breeds feelings of inferiority and the futility of action.  Somehow he had escaped the gospel of despair and dependence preached by the poverty pimps.  He did not express a great deal of sympathy for his American brothers, and was verbally hostile to people like the Rev. Jackson.

The bottom line is that those who long for an utopia where all the races and cultures will set aside their differences, hold hands, and sing "We Are The World" will be terribly disappointed.  From Epictetus  "He is a wise man who does not grieve for the things which he has not, but rejoices for those which he has."  Despite all our shortcomings, we continue to take baby steps, mostly in the right direction. 

Lou

You will get no argument from me concerning most of what you wrote.  Remember, I too am an immigrant and as I have said before, not a day goes by where I am not reminded of this either politely, savagely or in jest.  Of course, most forget they are speaking to an immigrant when the sticky topic of immigration arises.  Everybody gets kicked around to some degree and for some reason.  It is often largely up to the individual to cope for better or worse.  Thats the way it always was and despite billions of dollars spent in government programs that is the way it will always be.  However, that doesn't mean the government shouldn't be at the forefront of combating discrimination.  As I see it, that is part and parcel and what the Preamble to the US Constitution speaks to.

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, ensure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

I am not saying the government has done a great job or even if it has upheld its end of the bargain, but I can't fault the government for trying. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sifford Exemption
« Reply #48 on: February 19, 2009, 02:49:25 PM »
Quote
I do know a number of white men who hold racist views.  Some are reluctant to hire black males in blue collar jobs, but readily seek Hispanics.  Not a single one has a pathological problem with skin pigmentation.  Instead, their issue is one of culture and values.  Is it unfair for them to generalize?  Yes it is.  Are they cowards as the new AG suggests?  Absolutely not.  They just have better things to do in their estimation than to spend their limited amount of time on things that a) they are not likely to change, and b) that detract from their ability to make the payroll.- Lou Duran

It's not the white men who hold racist views, and let those views color their hiring practices who are the 'cowards', just the reverse.

edit: I'm editing this in the chance that you originally meant to say white men who DON'T' hold racist views.
In that case they may not be racists per se, but they are still 'cowards' who are guilty of racial discrimination.  You can choose to rationalize their actions in any way you see fit, but there is no getting away from fact that it is a cop-out to let assumptions dictate actions, and that's a cowardly position to take.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2009, 03:28:09 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jim Nugent

Re: Sifford Exemption
« Reply #49 on: February 19, 2009, 04:47:12 PM »
Yep, calling everyone cowards does wonders toward advancing racial harmony...

I assume that since he is Obama's AG, he reflects Obama's thinking too. 

Jim Kennedy: what does racial discrimination mean to you? 

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