[TEPaul]

Kalen:

See that area right between the first and second light-lines on the right? That is that famous or infamous Sunday Crump Cup pin.

Would Lange have gone right at that pin had MacGuinnes not hit his approach into the perfect postion about 15 feet left pin high just before him?

As aggressive as Lange can be I just can't imagine he would have, and that is precisely why this hole and particularly that pin has just got to be one of the best 19th hole tie-breakers in existence just as it was planned by Crump to be!

[TEPaul]

My own best experience on that PV 1st/19th hole design was in about a 7-8 man playoff in the Crump Cup qualifying round for something like three spots. I can't remember what my tee off position was but as short as I am I actually hit a 1 iron off the tee and then I was hitting first on the approach. The pin was all the way in the very back of the green in the middle. I hit a 3 iron and it felt like I semi-skulled it. It was low and humming and came in well back in the approach and rolled all the way up the green to about five feet. I missed the birdie putt but I got one of the three spots anyway. That's how dangerous that hole can be and why it's such a great and effective 19th hole or tiebreaker hole as it was intentionally designed to be.

On the other hand, I did have a couple of interesting overtime matches in the Crump; one against Holtgrieve where we both parred #1 and he beat me with a birdie on #2. But the best was against Chicago's Joel Hirsch. He completely and inexplicably let me back in with a three put on #18 from underneath a right front 18th pin (It doesn't get much easier than that! ). We both parred #1 and #2 and on #3 into a really stiff wind I hit the back left pin with a 4 iron (BAM). The ball caroomed about 25 feet right. Hirsch hit the ball so far left he was in that sandy walkway on #4.

I wasn't paying him any attention as I figured it was pretty much over. After a fairly long time I watch this ball sailing over the trees and it ends up about 20 feet from the pin. I three-putt and he makes and that was that which really does prove---"it ain't over until the Fat Lady sings." 

[Joel Zuckerman]

I'd like to offer another sensible option--the first (which becomes the 19th) at Secession Club in Beaufort, SC.  It's a shortish, severe dogleg right par--4, very dramatic, with a daunting over-marsh-and-scrub carry from the tee.  Fanning one right and leaving it in the reeds or sand does not preclude a player from finding it, knocking it on the green, and making par or birdie.  Conversely, with marsh encroaching both left, right and behind the green, a tee shot safely in the fairway is no guarantee of par.

The 2nd is a short par-3, and if the match continues, players are hard by the clubhouse at the 4th green.  And being the Lowcountry, there are no hills to climb heading out, or returning!

[TEPaul]

JoelZ:

Funny you should mention Secession's #1. I've always heard it is brutal hole but just today I was talking to my green chairman who just came back today from a weekend at Secession. I asked him how brutal that hole was and he said sort of what you did---eg it's not brutal but you sure do have to know where to aim it and hit it off the tee.

[Matt Day]

from memory Kingston Heath had a very good par 3 as their "spare hole',  about 145 metres and was extremely enjoyable to play

[Kalen Braley]

Tom Paul,

That does look to be a very intimidating pin location if i'm looking in the right spot as anything coming up short, right, or long right is going to be dead dead.  (yes two deads for effect!!)

Almost seems a sucker pin location if your name isn't Tiger...

[Joel Zuckerman]

Re:  Secession #1:  It's a quirk that repeats itself on different parts of the course, but more on the opening tee shot that elsewhere.  If you miss BIG--IE--a fan to the right that travels to 2:00, instead of 12:00, you will likely be sitting pretty on the sand, with a clean lie, and clean look at the green--perhaps 100--120 yards away.

BUT--If you come up a hair short on a ball that looks to be tracking to the fairway, there's an excellent chance it will be buried in the vegetation directly adjacent to the short-grass, never found, or--if found, necessitating a  hit-and-hope chop-out sideways into play.

[BVince]

Kinloch has a great 19th hole. 

I would have used it in the routing had I had different constraints.  Some say it is the best.  Par 3 over water.  I don't know how to post a picture but I think anyone who has played it would agree.

Lester

I have, and I do too!

[Bill_McBride]

One of the themes in George Thomas routings is #1 away from the clubhouse, #2 back to the clubhouse.   That sets these up as the best in 19th hole configurations.   Unless you're still tied after #2(20th) and then it's keep on truckin' and hike back.

[Sean_A]

I hate the whole idea of 19th holes.  Kiss your sister for the day and move on.  There's always tomorrow.

Dave

I generally agree with you, for friendlies and even many comps.  I sure would rather leave things a tie than use the absolutely worst tie break system I have ever heard of - better back 9.  Any comp I run I refuse to use this crappy British idea.  Once, I even drew the winner's name out of the hat just to show the folly of better back 9 because it amounts to the same thing.  The idea that a shot on the back 9 being worth more than the front 9 is a dopey as anything I have ever heard. 

Ciao

[Andrew Mitchell]

I hate the whole idea of 19th holes.  Kiss your sister for the day and move on.  There's always tomorrow.

Dave

I generally agree with you, for friendlies and even many comps.  I sure would rather leave things a tie than use the absolutely worst tie break system I have ever heard of - better back 9.  Any comp I run I refuse to use this crappy British idea.  Once, I even drew the winner's name out of the hat just to show the folly of better back 9 because it amounts to the same thing.  The idea that a shot on the back 9 being worth more than the front 9 is a dopey as anything I have ever heard. 

Ciao

Sean

That's obviously the system I've grown up with and accepted.  How are ties in medal/stableford competitions settled outside of the UK?

[Sean_A]

I hate the whole idea of 19th holes.  Kiss your sister for the day and move on.  There's always tomorrow.

Dave

I generally agree with you, for friendlies and even many comps.  I sure would rather leave things a tie than use the absolutely worst tie break system I have ever heard of - better back 9.  Any comp I run I refuse to use this crappy British idea.  Once, I even drew the winner's name out of the hat just to show the folly of better back 9 because it amounts to the same thing.  The idea that a shot on the back 9 being worth more than the front 9 is a dopey as anything I have ever heard. 

Ciao

Sean

That's obviously the system I've grown up with and accepted.  How are ties in medal/stableford competitions settled outside of the UK?

Andrew

I can't speak for the USA, but in my experience, folks would head for the 19th in any remotely serious comp.  In friendly comps (like societies) it would often be left a tie - quite honourably so.  I had never heard of better back 9 until I came to these shores and at first I thought guys were joking.  It would seem the Brits would rather a winner been drawn from a hat of tied folks rather than kiss yer sister and say goodnight.  It really is remarkable when you step back and think of it.  Honestly, this has to be the most most unsporting tie breaker I have ever heard of.  Though thinking about, your football leagues have odd breakers.  Instead of head to head encounters to differentiate, you lot use goal differential.  How bizarre is that? What is the difference how many goals are involved in a game?  A win is a win.  I also really dislike the try bonus points in rugby.  Its all must be some sort of weird British conspiracy presumably designed to keep Brits wallowing in sporting mediocrity.  That way the endless moaning about lack luster performances and the endless praising of anything to do with Australia and sport won't ever be interrupted. 

Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

"c. If a play-off of any type is not feasible, matching score
cards is recommended. The method of matching cards
should be announced in advance and should also provide
what will happen if this procedure does not produce a
winner. An acceptable method of matching the cards is
to determine the winner on the basis of the best score
for the last nine holes. If the tying players have the same
score for the last nine, determine the winner on the
basis of the last six holes, last three holes and finally the
18th hole. If this method is used in a competition with a
multiple tee start, it is recommended that the “last nine
holes, last six holes, etc.” is considered to be holes 10-18,
13-18, etc."

Sean et. al.

The USGA recommended method is the same is the R&A, as noted above from the USGA website.  They do recommend a playoff, but this is hardly feasible in a club stoke play competition where competitors come and go during the day and the results are not known until the last player posts his or her score.

It's a slightly quirky method, but not deserving of your wrath, IMO.  Can we assume that you lost a countback on a monthly medal at some time in your past?

Cheers

Rich

[Sean_A]

"c. If a play-off of any type is not feasible, matching score
cards is recommended. The method of matching cards
should be announced in advance and should also provide
what will happen if this procedure does not produce a
winner. An acceptable method of matching the cards is
to determine the winner on the basis of the best score
for the last nine holes. If the tying players have the same
score for the last nine, determine the winner on the
basis of the last six holes, last three holes and finally the
18th hole. If this method is used in a competition with a
multiple tee start, it is recommended that the “last nine
holes, last six holes, etc.” is considered to be holes 10-18,
13-18, etc."

Sean et. al.

The USGA recommended method is the same is the R&A, as noted above from the USGA website.  They do recommend a playoff, but this is hardly feasible in a club stoke play competition where competitors come and go during the day and the results are not known until the last player posts his or her score.

It's a slightly quirky method, but not deserving of your wrath, IMO.  Can we assume that you lost a countback on a monthly medal at some time in your past?

Cheers

Rich

Rich

I do notice that nowhere in the reco does it state that one and only one winner must be the outcome.  I did know the USGA recommended the same system once I moved here and checked the rules, but I have never seen it in practice in the States.  That doesn't mean it isn't used, but it also doesn't mean I will be less wrathful concerning the reco.  As I said earlier, it is the most unsporting way to choose a winner that I know of.  It is the same as flipping a coin - what is the point in doing that to decide a winner?  To be honest, the system has treated me rather well.  I think I am 4-2 using this process, but I always refer to these deals as tied for first because I know the truth.  Remember, I am the guy who detests penalty kicks and at least they involve some skill.  So there is no way I could aver agree that better back 9 is anything close to a good system.

Ciao

[Kevin Pallier]

TOC...especially with a front pin. The 18th also wouldn't be too bad a tandem....with a pin tucked in behind the "valley of sin" 

Not bad B2B playoff holes.....

[James Bennett]

One of the themes in George Thomas routings is #1 away from the clubhouse, #2 back to the clubhouse.   That sets these up as the best in 19th hole configurations.   Unless you're still tied after #2(20th) and then it's keep on truckin' and hike back.

And at Flynn's Rolling Green. followed by a short 3

And at Newcastle (Australia). followed by a llloooonnnnnggggggggg 3

James B

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