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David_Tepper

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The Squire on the good Doctor
« on: February 04, 2009, 11:05:15 PM »
In Ron Whitten's "Real Secrets of Golf Course Architects" article in this week's GolfWorld, he quotes Gene Sarazen (in 1976) as follows:

"I wasn't impressed with Augusta National. Of course, I was never an admirer on Dr. Alister Mackenzie's architecture. I'd seen several of his courses in Europe. He had more freakish greens than anybody I'd ever seen. Even Colonel Jones, Bob's father, used to complain about it."

Rich Goodale

Re: The Squire on the good Doctor
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2009, 12:27:30 AM »
David

Sarazen probably found ANGC too easy, what with the double-eagle and all.

Ou est les Saracenis d'antan?

Rich

Neil_Crafter

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Re: The Squire on the good Doctor
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2009, 12:53:49 AM »
David
Mackenzie and Sarazen had a fairly public spat about Mackenzie's new course at Troon (now the Portland course), where the qualifying rounds were held for the 1923 Open Championship. Sarazen criticised the course after his round (according to Mackenzie Sarazen did not even bother to have a practice round on the course before the qualifying). Mackenzie then hit back with an article in Golf Illustrated's September 1923 issue entitled "Sarazen's Nemesis at Troon: An Answer to the Criticisms Made Against the New Course by the Architect". I think he also continues his criticism of Sarazen in The Spirit of St Andrews. So there's some history between the two shall we say.

Matthew Mollica

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Re: The Squire on the good Doctor
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2009, 03:05:51 AM »
The freakish greens comment is interesting. Maybe Sarazen was one of the first professional golfers to be a proponent of "fair" golf.

MM
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Kalen Braley

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Re: The Squire on the good Doctor
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2009, 08:35:50 AM »
A pro complaining about unfair greens??  Nah...couldn't be...  ::)  ::)

BCrosby

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Re: The Squire on the good Doctor
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2009, 09:07:51 AM »
Neil -

The Portland Course has always interested me. There was a time when it was considered one of the best in Scotland, as I recall. I think MacKenzie even claimed at one time that it was better than the older course at Troon. The current Portland certainly isn't.

While not wanting to tread on the tender toes of those here who believe that all courses always evolve for the better, what happened to Portland?

Bob 

Bill_McBride

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Re: The Squire on the good Doctor
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2009, 09:16:30 AM »
David
Mackenzie and Sarazen had a fairly public spat about Mackenzie's new course at Troon (now the Portland course), where the qualifying rounds were held for the 1923 Open Championship. Sarazen criticised the course after his round (according to Mackenzie Sarazen did not even bother to have a practice round on the course before the qualifying). Mackenzie then hit back with an article in Golf Illustrated's September 1923 issue entitled "Sarazen's Nemesis at Troon: An Answer to the Criticisms Made Against the New Course by the Architect". I think he also continues his criticism of Sarazen in The Spirit of St Andrews. So there's some history between the two shall we say.

Neil, is there a way to post a link to that article?   I'd love to read it!  Saracen was such a cool guy as an older gent that it's hard to believe he would have chewed up Mackenzie like that.  Great history lesson, thanks!

Rich Goodale

Re: The Squire on the good Doctor
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2009, 09:21:20 AM »
Bob

I have always considered the Portland to be a very good links golf course, but if Mackenzie ever thought it to be of a quality anything close to that of the old course at Troon, it must have been the father in him talking rather than the architectural analyst.

Rich

PThomas

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Re: The Squire on the good Doctor
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2009, 09:26:21 AM »
David
Mackenzie and Sarazen had a fairly public spat about Mackenzie's new course at Troon (now the Portland course), where the qualifying rounds were held for the 1923 Open Championship. Sarazen criticised the course after his round (according to Mackenzie Sarazen did not even bother to have a practice round on the course before the qualifying). Mackenzie then hit back with an article in Golf Illustrated's September 1923 issue entitled "Sarazen's Nemesis at Troon: An Answer to the Criticisms Made Against the New Course by the Architect". I think he also continues his criticism of Sarazen in The Spirit of St Andrews. So there's some history between the two shall we say.

coincidence that Sarazen failed to qualify??
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Sam Morrow

Re: The Squire on the good Doctor
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2009, 01:08:53 PM »
Sarazen was such an interesting man, I'd love to read his thoughts on GCA. I know that he talked about making the hole bigger and liked the 18th hole being a par 3 as it was the fairest type of hole. I also get a kick out of the fact we're talking about a guy who had a spat in 1923 and I watched in my lifetime (I'm only 26).

Bob_Huntley

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Re: The Squire on the good Doctor
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2009, 01:30:28 PM »
Sarazen was such an interesting man, I'd love to read his thoughts on GCA. I know that he talked about making the hole bigger and liked the 18th hole being a par 3 as it was the fairest type of hole. I also get a kick out of the fact we're talking about a guy who had a spat in 1923 and I watched in my lifetime (I'm only 26).

Sam,

I think the best quote on the life and times of Sarazen was when someone approached Sarazen pere and congratulated him on his son's victory in the US Open.  The grizzled old stonemason replied, " Fer chrisakes, why wouldn't he, that 's all he's ever done, play goddamn golf."

Bob

Garland Bayley

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Re: The Squire on the good Doctor
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2009, 03:46:32 PM »
The freakish greens comment is interesting. Maybe Sarazen was one of the first professional golfers to be a proponent of "fair" golf.

MM

No, professional golfers have long been proponents of "fair" golf. That is why MacKenzie criticized them and the golf courses they built. Same old monotonous stuff that could not possibly bring ruination to the professional's score card.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The Squire on the good Doctor
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2009, 04:42:17 PM »
I just realized I know very little about Gene Sarazen's golf game.  He was a good bunker player because he invented the sand wedge, and he once holed a 4-wood; that's about all I know.

I suspect he wasn't a very good putter ... complaining about freakish greens is one thing, but when you propose enlarging the hole, that's a pretty good hint.

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Squire on the good Doctor
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2009, 04:46:04 PM »
I just realized I know very little about Gene Sarazen's golf game.  He was a good bunker player because he invented the sand wedge, and he once holed a 4-wood; that's about all I know.

I suspect he wasn't a very good putter ... complaining about freakish greens is one thing, but when you propose enlarging the hole, that's a pretty good hint.

Great point, Tom!

Someone who was in favour of enlarging the hole certainly can't be the best judge of the architectural merits of putting greens!
jeffmingay.com

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Squire on the good Doctor
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2009, 04:54:18 PM »
Tom,

I was going to say something snarky like maybe you should look at his wiki entry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_Sarazen.  But after having a look at it, you pretty much summed up what it says in there about his golf game.  :'(

However, I have a different take on hole size even though I consider myself a good putter.  Its by far and away the best part of my game in contrast to the rest of my high handicap game.  While I do like interesting, undulating greens, I would also advocate larger hole size for improving the speed of the game and having more fun around the greens in both putting and chipping.  Sure it means more holed putts, but it also means more agressive and risk taking play which in the end translates to more options in how one gets the ball in the hole.  Additionally it may lead to a better variety of pin locations as it could be acceptable to put a cup placement on a more moderatly sloped part of the green because the hole is after all a bigger target.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2009, 04:57:13 PM by Kalen Braley »

David_Tepper

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Re: The Squire on the good Doctor
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2009, 05:25:07 PM »
In Paul Runyan's short-game book, he talks about a tournament or exhibition that was played in his day with a larger hole. It turned out the bigger hole gave the better putters even MORE of an advantage. Even though the lesser putters made a higher percentage of their short putts, the better putters made a MUCH higher percentage of their 10-, 15- & 20-footers.

 

Kalen Braley

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Re: The Squire on the good Doctor
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2009, 06:00:11 PM »
In Paul Runyan's short-game book, he talks about a tournament or exhibition that was played in his day with a larger hole. It turned out the bigger hole gave the better putters even MORE of an advantage. Even though the lesser putters made a higher percentage of their short putts, the better putters made a MUCH higher percentage of their 10-, 15- & 20-footers.
 

David...

Shhhhhh!!!  You weren't supposed to tell em thats the real reason I'm in favor of bigger cups.   ;D

TEPaul

Re: The Squire on the good Doctor
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2009, 07:17:21 PM »
I should mention at the opening of the Palmer Center last June I got to know Gene Sarazen's daughter quite well and stayed in email contact with her. My Goodness what a fun and delightful person she is. So if anyone has some additional questions about Sarazen perhaps I could email her and ask.

George_Bahto

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Re: The Squire on the good Doctor
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2009, 07:49:32 PM »
I had the pleasure of interviewing Gene a couple years before he died hoping to find out his thoughts on the Lido course - he may have been the last living player of the course at the time   :P

The interview (set up by Rand Jerris) was a week after the last time he teed off at the Masters

He did not like Lido and he did not like NGLA - "too may blind shots"  again sort of growling ....

I kept going back to Lido but he continued to grill me on The Knoll where he often played - it was one of his favorites

I found out thru the MGA historian that he never scored well at either Lido or National

I guess a lot of golfer don't like courses we don't score well on
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Sam Morrow

Re: The Squire on the good Doctor
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2009, 10:10:38 PM »
I had the pleasure of interviewing Gene a couple years before he died hoping to find out his thoughts on the Lido course - he may have been the last living player of the course at the time   :P

The interview (set up by Rand Jerris) was a week after the last time he teed off at the Masters

He did not like Lido and he did not like NGLA - "too may blind shots"  again sort of growling ....

I kept going back to Lido but he continued to grill me on The Knoll where he often played - it was one of his favorites

I found out thru the MGA historian that he never scored well at either Lido or National

I guess a lot of golfer don't like courses we don't score well on


Did he go into any detail about courses he did like, aside from The Knoll?

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Squire on the good Doctor
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2009, 10:21:58 PM »
Sam he didn't - I think he was 92 at the time and I really didn't want to push.

He did go into his "inventing" the sand wedge though - it was fun.

"you know George, I was flying in a small plane and the way the plane handled when you pulled the stick back really got me thinking ........... so I soldered this lead on the bottom of my wedge ..... and so on....

that's a paraphrase but I'll not forget that phone conversation

"so, what's happening at The Knoll?    .....   I had this company in Detroit that had me take people out there to play ............"
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Neil_Crafter

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Re: The Squire on the good Doctor
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2009, 10:47:06 PM »
Bill
I couldn't copy over the exact link from the SEGL section of the USGA website, but you have to download the PDF of the entire issue which will take some time. Its September 1923 of Golf Illustrated. This link will take you to the search page.
www.usgamuseum.com/researchers/usga_segl/

Bob C
Mackenzie wrote in Sprit of St Andrews that "The Portland course is further inland and has not the natural advantage of the sea or the magnificent sand dunes of the Old Course, but many consider it a better test of golf and more interesting. Unfortunately it is not kept in the same excellent condition as the Old Course, there is no water laid on the greens, and the club devotes most of their labour to old Troon." I think there is a fair bit of your answer in there.

cheers Neil


Greg Murphy

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Re: The Squire on the good Doctor
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2009, 11:57:05 PM »
I just realized I know very little about Gene Sarazen's golf game.  He was a good bunker player because he invented the sand wedge, and he once holed a 4-wood; that's about all I know.

I suspect he wasn't a very good putter ... complaining about freakish greens is one thing, but when you propose enlarging the hole, that's a pretty good hint.

Great point, Tom!

Someone who was in favour of enlarging the hole certainly can't be the best judge of the architectural merits of putting greens!

Not so fast Tom and Jeff. There's an alternative way of looking at it, but first, consider the game of basketball. The hoop is 18" in diameter. The ball is 9" in diameter. What if the hoop was only 14" or 16" in diameter? Would it be a different game? For sure. It would move the focus of play inside and reduce the overall dimension and balance of the game. Would great shooters complain, e.g., Steve Nash? For sure. Would incredible all round players complain, e.g., Alan Iverson? For sure. You wouldn't see AI score too often if he posed no outside threat. Would Shaq complain? Not a chance. Would fans complain? For sure. Basketball actually went the other way, not by enlarging the hoop, but by adding the three point line. To add dimension to the game. To broaden the potential scoring zone.

Hockey and football did the same thing by adding the forward pass. To add dimension. To broaden the potential scoring zone.

I know absolutely nothing about Sarazen's game. But I think it possible that he was an excellent putter, as good as the other pros, but likely a significant cut above most of the rest in virtually all other aspects of the game. However, his overall superiority was diluted by the size of the hole. The smaller the hole, the more putting becomes an exercise of avoiding three putts and the more diluted superiority from tee to green becomes. I believe Sarazen, Miller and Hogan all thought the hole should be bigger because they felt the guy who consistently puts it to 10-12 feet is rewarded very little compared to the guy only half as accurate on his approach shots.

Sarazen, Miller and Hogan, all great ball strikers, were I suspect great putters for much of their careers, and if their putters started failing them, it was probably because they began to grumble about how little reward the game provided to those demonstrably superior tee to green. And grumbling and complaining about the unjustness of it all was probably the kiss of death to their putting ability.

Like the forward pass and the three point line, enlarging the hole in golf would broaden the potential scoring zone. But if freakish greens are what these guys were really complaining about, then if their wish for a larger hole was granted, they probably wouldn't be too happy because greens would most certainly become far more, not less, freakish as a result.

Kevin_Reilly

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Re: The Squire on the good Doctor
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2009, 12:28:48 AM »
Sarazen was credited with designing one of the Diablo Grande courses (Patterson, CA...off the 5) with Nicklaus.  Are there other Sarazen courses out there? 

{yes, don't worry, I realize that probably neither he nor JN spent much time in Patterson}
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Jim Nugent

Re: The Squire on the good Doctor
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2009, 06:04:49 AM »
But if freakish greens are what these guys were really complaining about, then if their wish for a larger hole was granted, they probably wouldn't be too happy because greens would most certainly become far more, not less, freakish as a result.

Imagine what the USGA (and others) would have to do to courses, to keep the pros from demolishing par.


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