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Billsteele

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GolfWorld article on Dick Wilson
« on: February 04, 2009, 08:08:41 AM »
Interesting article in GolfWorld on Dick Wilson. I don't know if much new is covered but it is somewhat sad that one of the main things people remember about him is his alcoholism. Here is the link: http://www.golfdigest.com/golfworld/columnists/2009/02/gw20090209sherman?currentPage=1
« Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 12:11:10 PM by Billsteele »

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: GolfWeek article on Dick Wilson
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2009, 08:38:31 AM »
Thanks for the link, Bill. Interesting article.

How good is Cog Hill No. 4? For real.
jeffmingay.com

PCCraig

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Re: GolfWeek article on Dick Wilson
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2009, 09:05:49 AM »
I would second that its sad that the drinking is what everone remembers about him. I had no idea he worked for Flynn and completed Shinny. Pretty cool.

Cog Hill really is a great golf course that just needed to be opened up a bit, from the pictures I have seen so far it looks like R. Jones has done that.
H.P.S.

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: GolfWeek article on Dick Wilson
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2009, 09:21:55 AM »
Pat,

With regard to Shinnecock, it's reported that there was some controversy over Wilson taking credit for the design following Flynn's death!

Perhaps someone has more details (which I think, again, has been discussed here before).
jeffmingay.com

Adam Clayman

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Re: GolfWeek article on Dick Wilson
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2009, 09:41:44 AM »
Jeff, Cog Hill #4 is only considered great in the Chicagoland area because of the lack of really great public courses in the region. In comparison to the country's best, it hardly holds a candle. Extending the course to 7600 yards, crippled by trees and rough, highlights a lack of architectural interest and freedom that great courses have.

The course seems forced onto a site, that has three other courses, creating a schizophrenic feel to the routing.

It could be categorized as one of the great missed opportunities since the terrain in the Lemont area has plenty of movement and character.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

TEPaul

Re: GolfWeek article on Dick Wilson
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2009, 09:47:06 AM »
"I had no idea he worked for Flynn and completed Shinny. Pretty cool"

Dick Wilson worked for Toomey and Flynn (or Flynn) for years. Flynn had some good future architects as foremen in his company for years including Wilson, William Gordon and Red Lawrence. Wilson's brother worked for Toomey and Flynn too.

There was a bit of a problem with Wilson claiming, after Flynn died, that he designed Shinnecock, and somehow Shinnecock seemed to believe that for a time.

The true story is during construction Wilson at one point took some liberties with the design plans which essentially infuriated Toomey and Flynn and which prompted them to go back and change what he'd done back to their plans.

TEPaul

Re: GolfWeek article on Dick Wilson
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2009, 10:02:46 AM »
One of the things in that article is a little spooky to me---eg the part about how Wilson took a fall in a car-port at Pine Tree and essentially that seems to have killed him as he died from it three weeks later.

Back in those early days there were a very few houses built and occupied at Pine Tree but two of them I know of were Wally Sezna's and my father's. My Dad who was one of the founders of Pine Tree lived there with one of his best friends, Jim Raymond, who drew Dagwood and Blondie for about thirty years. Both of them had just gotten divorced.

Dick Wilson was their really good friend and I hate to say it but all those guys really did drink too much. Armour was over there all the time too and things did seem to get out of control often.

One instance in that place I mentioned on here years ago because basically it's pretty amazing and funny. Dad and Jim Raymond had this big standard poodle at that time (it belonged to Raymond but Dad was a life-long dog lover (and that's how I ended up with over 300 greyhounds after he died)). They always said that dog was unquestionably the smartest they ever saw and he was also one who demanded something of a daily walk without fail.

Well, I guess they all went on something of a toot for a few days (maybe with Wilson) and when they got back to the house that dog had taken all their dirty laundry out of the closet, dragged it all into the middle of the livingroom, dragged his leash onto the top of the dirty laundry and then took a shit on top of it all.   ;) ::)

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: GolfWeek article on Dick Wilson
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2009, 10:08:36 AM »
Tom,

Your stories never cease to amaze me!

Forget the Flynn book, I'm waiting for your autobiography  ;D
jeffmingay.com

PThomas

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Re: GolfWeek article on Dick Wilson
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2009, 10:21:58 AM »
thanks for the laugh Tom ! :D
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

JMEvensky

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Re: GolfWeek article on Dick Wilson
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2009, 10:24:01 AM »
Tom,

Your stories never cease to amaze me!

Forget the Flynn book, I'm waiting for your autobiography  ;D

 I second that.There's a guaranteed 1500 buyers right here.

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: GolfWeek article on Dick Wilson
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2009, 10:44:58 AM »
The article was in Golf World, not GollWeek.

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

TEPaul

Re: GolfWeek article on Dick Wilson
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2009, 10:48:56 AM »
Guys:

I hear what some say above that it's sad when Dick Wilson's name gets mentioned invariably his alcholism is mentioned too. It is sad, but if we really care about knowing about these men like Dick Wilson and some of the others of the earlier days we should take the good with the bad because all of it was part of the tapestry of their lives.

Many of those guys down there in Southeast Florida in those days were essentially Northeasterners and a lot of New Yorkers. The ones who played a lot, and played well, all knew each other and they all loved Dick Wilson and his work. They actually considered him to be "their architect" and that would obviously explain why they got him to do Pine Tree, to work on Seminole and Gulfstream down there and also to do Deepdale and Meadowbrook in New York and some of his courses in New Jersey. All of those guys knew one another pretty well. It was sort of an enormous cliche in those days.

When Dick died fairly young they tried to turn to his partner Joe Lee but for some reason that never took. Actually the one they gravitated to was Pete but he didn't really do the kind of work on their courses that Dick Wilson did.

I know some of those stories are funny but some are sad too and I've always had sort of mixed emotions telling them.

I loved my Dad unquestionably always, and I sure admired him for his golf but I can't deny there were plenty of problems with both him and his friends and somehow it always seemed to gravitate to something to do with too much drinking. That just seemed to be the way it was back then with that crowd, but they all were colorful that's for sure, and as a kid I liked most all of them immensely.

That kind of culture and life style seems to be pretty much gone now, at least the way it was then, as the world has changed apparently in that way or with that kind of group.

I actually have a theory about those types that ended up in Florida in the early days particularly just after the war when Florida was so young and basically undeveloped. Back then it seemed something like an outpost from the real world (not quite to the degree the Bahamas was then but pretty close). I think most of those guys were sort of what their own society often called, and often even somewhat affectionately, "the bad-boys", the black-sheep of their families, as it were, and because they were they were sort of a band of adventurers.

The ones who were into golf, really into golf, seemed so close, a real bunch of brothers. And I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say it sure looked to me like they had a ton of fun together, they really did, perhaps even like we can hardly imagine, even if, it may not have been much fun for most of them most mornings.

Unfortunately, because they did, and the way they did, some of them paid the price for it and paid the price too young. Dick Wilson was one of them, apparently. But I remember how much they liked what he did and I have to think if they liked his stuff that much he had to have been as good as they said he was.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 11:04:47 AM by TEPaul »

Michael Moore

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Re: GolfWeek article on Dick Wilson
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2009, 11:03:59 AM »
Tom Paul -

I am going to briefly emerge from my ice cave here and say that your portrait of the WASP bon-vivants of this bygone age has, as always, captured my imagination.

Although it may not apply to the demographic in question, what do you think of the general theory that, after World War II, people who had lived through that and the Great Depression were very ready to cut loose and enjoy themselves for once?
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

TEPaul

Re: GolfWeek article on Dick Wilson
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2009, 11:12:25 AM »
"Although it may not apply to the demographic in question, what do you think of the general theory that, after World War II, people who had lived through that and the Great Depression were very ready to cut loose and enjoy themselves for once?"

Michael:

I don't think there is any quesiton of that---none at all. I think it has been pretty well chronciled too and certainly not just by someone like me.

BUT, to truly understand the reason and the degree of what you just said there, I believe one who is interested in that kind of subject really needs to step back in history approximately thirty years previous from the aftermath of WW2 and take a good close look at what happened following WW1, the war that many historians today still refer to as "The GREAT War", and analyze what went on following that in what was known at "The Roaring Twenties". 

Apropos of this particular thread, Dick Wilson grew up in "The Roaring Twenties."

TEPaul

Re: GolfWeek article on Dick Wilson
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2009, 11:31:17 AM »
Michael:

I notice you call it "my portrait of the WASP bon-vivants of a bygone age.'

Many of them down there in Southeast Florida that I knew back then in the old days were that but that's not all they were. I find the mix of their group and culture down there then truly fascinating because that sure wasn't all they were.

Since my Dad was always so into golf and so good at it that is basically the glue that I saw with those people in his life, but if they loved it nobody cared where they came from or who they were or even what they'd done and there sure were some colorful characters that way. One of the most that way was a guy who was always around by the name of Warren Rief. Dad and his great friend Jim Raymond who drew Dagwood and Blondie seemed to be the ones who would hand out the appellations in that large group and they called him "Reef the Thief". Some other time I'll tell you why.

But sure the war must have had a lot to do with it. Have you ever been in the military, Michael? There is a camaraderie that seems to inevitably get produced amongst military people that is almost impossible to explain to people who have never been in it and then if they have to actually get into and fight in a war like WW2 you can just take that camardarie and all it does to those people and step it up by a factor of maybe ten.

I'll tell you later what my farther did one time crossing the North Atlantic in a massive convoy. How in the world he lived noone who was there ever could figure out, even him. And one of the real ironies in my life and my young life when I became pretty much fixated by WW2 (around the time Vietnam was going on) was the fact it was virtually impossible to get any of those guys who went through WW2 to sit down with you and talk about it in detail or even talk about it at all.

If you're interested in that time a relatively recent book for you to read is Tom Brokaw's "The Greatest Generation." I doubt anyone could accurately say that they were born great or anything, I guess it was just that the times of their lives brought it out in many of them. But for most everything there always seems to be a flipside, don't you think, Michael? If so it would seem it took it out of them too, and some paid the price afterwards.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 11:47:20 AM by TEPaul »

Chris_Blakely

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Re: GolfWorld article on Dick Wilson
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2009, 12:35:42 PM »
I found it ironic and maybe even sad that Dick Wilson and Robert Trent Jones Sr. were "fierce competitors" and now his son Rees Jones has renovated or is renovating several of his courses.  One considered one of Wilson's best.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2009, 09:21:36 AM by Chris_Blakely »

Adam Clayman

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Re: GolfWorld article on Dick Wilson
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2009, 01:06:05 PM »
Tom, Thanx for the history perspective.
How about your thoughts on some of the GCA?
How would you categorize Wilson's designs? Penal? Manufactured? I haven't played enough of them to form an opinion, especially considering Dubbsdread came late in his career when Lee and others were probably picking up most of the slack, assuming he was pickled, and getting worse at that time.
If the answer is yes to both of those, what was it about that clique that made them so attracted to Wilson's courses, with that style of GCA? Would it be because they were friends/brothers? Good/better players? Game minders?
Really anything you care to share will be entertaining and worth the read. Thanx.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Mike_Clayton

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Re: GolfWorld article on Dick Wilson
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2009, 01:46:42 PM »
Perhaps little known in America is that Wilson designed the back nine at Metropolitan in Melbourne when the old nine was lost to a government school project in the late fifties.
The Australian Women's Open is there next week.

PCCraig

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Re: GolfWorld article on Dick Wilson
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2009, 01:56:38 PM »
They were different times indeed.

Hopefully R. Jones' work at Cog Hill only helps his legacy, which I think it will.

Between Cog Hill and Pine Meadow this group is well represented in the Chicago area. Maybe more ironic is that Joe Lee / Rocky remodeled Pine Meadow, which was a Flynn course way back.
H.P.S.

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: GolfWorld article on Dick Wilson
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2009, 01:57:45 PM »
Mike,

What are your opinions of Wilson's work at Metro.? I'm curious.

On aside, Pine Tree looks pretty cool in historic photos. Didn't Bobby Weed do some worrk there, recently?
jeffmingay.com

Billsteele

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Re: GolfWorld article on Dick Wilson
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2009, 02:16:25 PM »
Adam-I have to say that at one time I was not that impressed with Wilson's work. My only exposure was to some of the projects that he did in the Midwest. I think Dubsdread was uneven (a mix of some very good holes with some bland to poor ones). Coldstream in Cincinnati is well done but very manufactured (a Florida course imposed on to Ohio turf). His re-do of Ross' Scioto is not very good IMHO (including the 8th hole which is totally out of character with the rest of the course).

However, I then played NCR-South and it's damn good. A rolling parkland golf course with interesting bunkering, good green complexes and a great variety of holes with options. For purposes of an historical comparison, it blows Trent Jones' work at Firestone (with an existing routing) away. It made me want to see more of what is considered to be his best work, such as Pine Tree. Perhaps the erratic nature of his personal life is reflected in his architecture.

Tom Paul-I agree that Wilson's self-destructive tendencies are part of his life. It's just that every article I see profiling Wilson is split about 50-50 (and that may be generous) between the alcohol and the architecture. That is a sad legacy. I sure as hell hope that people remember me in a better light...but at least I have the comfort of knowing that I won't hear what they say when I'm gone.


Chris_Blakely

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Re: GolfWorld article on Dick Wilson
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2009, 02:36:44 PM »
I know Dick Wilson also added 9 holes at in The Pennhills Club in Bradford, PA.  The original 9 or 11 holes were done by Walter Travis and there was a recent thread about the course.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,36053.0.html


http://www.pennhillsclub.com/Golf_Course.html

Chris


Tim Liddy

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Re: GolfWorld article on Dick Wilson
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2009, 02:50:48 PM »
Tom,

Great stuff. You do need to write down all these great stories.  Combine them with great golf, golf swing insights (I imagine they spent hours discussing the golf swing and its intricacies) and it would make a wonderful book.

It also gives give a different perspective on Pete Dye that explains bits of his personality and love of the game to me.

I am traveling overseas but the next time I am in Florida I need to take you to dinner to discuss this historic time in golf.

The kernels that were sown from this small group of people throughout today’s world of golf were great.  Armour, your Dad, Wilson, Pete Dye, etc. –incredible!

Thanks Tom.


Richard Hetzel

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Re: GolfWorld article on Dick Wilson
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2009, 02:52:21 PM »
I thoroughly enjoy all the Dick Wilson courses that I have played. I have played Coldstream CC here in Cincinnati on many, many occasions. A very solid golf course, although IMO, not truly a "memorable" layout.

Oleander GC on Jekyll Island is a really fun course and an excellent routing as well. I could play this course over and over, if it just did not have those dang bermuda greens! I just wish they (Staae of Georgia)  would pony up the $$$ and renovate it, thus allowing it to be the first class golf course that it really could be.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 02:57:47 PM by Rich Hetzel »
Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

Ed Homsey

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Re: GolfWorld article on Dick Wilson
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2009, 03:04:37 PM »
Chris

It is true that Dick Wilson completed the Walter Travis layout at Pennhills.  The Wilson back 9 follows the 1921 Travis layout perfectly--up to the 17th hole.  #s 1 and 18 were added by the club to accommodate their clubhouse that was constructed in 1937.  But, I am certain that Wilson used the 9th through 17th holes of Travis's layout.

Ed Homsey

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