[Ian Andrew]

I would probably nominate the youngest of the 3 courses at Gleneagles.

Philip,

Since you made the statement - take the time to justify it.

Tell me the glaring flaws with the King's course routing.
List all the bad holes and give some explanation on what’s wrong with them.

[James Boon]

I would probably nominate the youngest of the 3 courses at Gleneagles.

Philip,

Since you made the statement - take the time to justify it.

Tell me the glaring flaws with the King's course routing.
List all the bad holes and give some explanation on what’s wrong with them.

Ian, I think Philip was suggesting the PGA Centenary, not the Kings? At least i was when I seconded it...

I would probably nominate the youngest of the 3 courses at Gleneagles.

I'll second this one! Looking back on it, the PGA Centenary may not be a dreadful course, but it should have been so much more with that land, the history of the club, the setting and views!

Cheers,

James

I posted pictures of the course after I'd caddies round it last summer:
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35547.0.html

Nicklaus himself is quoted as saying its the finest parcel of land he has ever had to work with, but he must have done something wrong if DMK has been brought in so quickly to make changes?

Its a great setting but the course didn't really excite me? I can remember that I couldn't help but think that while I we were on 5, 6 and 7 that I would rather have been on the nearby 3, 4 and 5 of the Kings that we could see? As for the routing, as a walker on the course (rather than a buggy driver) I tend to see long walks between holes as a flaw in a routing, and the PGA has plenty of these. And the holes, well I can remember that 18 just seemed a long uphill slog! Think that covers it?

Cheers,

James

[Mitchell Schneringer]

Half Moon Bay.

[Wyatt Halliday]

I have to nominate Arrowhead. It upsets me to think how good it could have been...or could still be someday?

[Brian Cenci]

I would nominate Bay Harbor (Links / Quarry).  I really felt underwhelmed, especially on the links 9. 


Nev

Ditto...I'd throw in Princeville - Prince course into that mix

[Philip Spogard]

Ian:
I did mean the PGA Centenary course - which is the youngest of the 3 courses. There are so many things that could be better - including the many downright bad holes. (Also considering the inspiration which could be taken from the two older courses!)

I love the King's course!

[Tom Huckaby]

Chambers Bay was built on a quarry and it is awesome. Spanish Bay missed it by a mile. There are some okay holes there, but there should be some great holes too. Sadly there is not a great hole to be found. Is Spanish Bay the worst course of all time? Not even close, but it had the potential to be great and that is why it is the worst course on an great site.

Mucci was right in regard to NGLA and Garden City so he gets high marks in my book. Sorry Huck.

Jim - then we shall agree to disagree.  I don't see that Spanish Bay missed much, if any, of any potential it had IN REALITY (note a hotel was not part of the equation at Chambers Bay).  I also see it as a pretty darn good course, so it can't be the worst anything.  I guess we're gonna be at polar opposites here.

Then it's your stated opinion that Spanish Bay is a wonderful golf course ?

But regarding Mr. Eristic... just WHAT was he right about regarding those courses?  That they are excellent?  Gee, really astute observation there.

Mucci gets zero high marks in my book for discussion here, given he admitted today that nearly everything he states in here is argumentative bullshit (or to put it another way, he's eristic).

I never admitted that, that's your necessary conclusion due to the fact that you're so often wrong when it comes to architectural issues.

He does get very high marks for being a hell of a player, a great guy to hang out with, and an admirable fighter in life and in golf.

SO... citing him as an example for opinions here isn't gonna do anything with me but tear you down, Jim.

Jim, the bad machines don't know when they're bad.
Consider Huckaby's disagreement with your opinion as a validation for your point of view.

With respect to my exchange with TH and JME relative to ANGC one would think that experience and wisdom would take preference over wishful thinking and overestimating one's abilities.

Anyone who thinks that Spanish Bay doesn't represent an "opportunity lost" isn't in touch with the site, the golf course and architectural sensabilities.

ERISTIC ALERT! ERISTIC ALERT!

Hopefully I don't have to keep sounding these warnings.  Mucci proves yet again that he's completely full of shit...  and he can't get away from his admission... from the Augusta thread:

It took you guys that long to come up with a word that partially captures my modus operandi on some of my posts ?

I informed you at the outset that Ran pays me by the number of responses and views that I produce/evoke.


Love ya Pat.  But ERISTIC ye be.  Hey, it's a great thing.  Good for you.

TH

[Dean DiBerardino]

Of the courses I have played and seen, Pinehurst Course No. 4 is at the top of my list in this category.  Built on a wonderful piece of rolling terrain as well as the neighbor to Course No. 2, this one should have been much better.

The resort's goal was to have Tom Fazio build a golf course similar to something that Donald  Ross would have built and some of the things that resulted were:

Pot Bunker Clusters – It seems that these bunkers were supposed to emulate something that Ross designed at Dornoch.  They have to be a maintenance nightmare and are not very pleasing to play out of.

Greens With Excessively Sharp Falloffs  – The greens were built to emulate the run off areas similar to Course No. 2's greens.  Many are too severe such as #1, #15 & #18.

Uninteresting Greens – Most of the greens were shaped and grassed in before the 1999 U.S. Open.  Fearing that the speed of the new G2 greens with any undulation would be too much for the average resort player, the greens were built very flat and uninteresting (and very hard to read).  The remainder of greens built after the Open, such as #16, have more internal contour to them but nothing of any interest.  It seems they saw how well the greens on No. 2 handled the speeds during the Open and decided to add a little contour to some of the ones that remained to be built.

Course No. 1 Casualty -  The resort wanted the golfer to be able to stand in the middle of #18 fairway of No. 4 and be able to view the south side of the clubhouse.  To accomplish this, the green site for the old #18 had to be lowered over 30 feet.  As a result, one of the best holes of the 90 in the complex, the 150 yard 18th hole on Course No. 1, was plowed under and a copy (?) of it was routed towards the clubhouse as well.

Again, a great piece of land with a golf course that didn't match up with the quality of the land and location.

[Patrick_Mucci]

ERISTIC ALERT! ERISTIC ALERT!

Hopefully I don't have to keep sounding these warnings.  Mucci proves yet again that he's completely full of shit...  and he can't get away from his admission... from the Augusta thread:

It took you guys that long to come up with a word that partially captures my modus operandi on some of my posts ?

I've bolded two key words which you obviously overlooked.
It's wishful thinking on your part to interpret the above in a universal context.

I informed you at the outset that Ran pays me by the number of responses and views that I produce/evoke.

And I've got a bridge or two that cross the Hudson and East Rivers that I'll sell you at a big discount.

Love ya Pat.  But ERISTIC ye be.  Hey, it's a great thing.  Good for you.

The problem is, you'll never know whether I'm genuinely championing a position or just being eristic.

[Tom Huckaby]

Patrick:

ERISTIC, ERISTIC, ERISTIC!

and now...

IRRELEVANT!  IRRELEVANT!  IRRELEVANT!

Once eristic, always to be ignored.

Too bad too, at very rare times you do have some decent thoughts.

TH

[JMEvensky]

Patrick:

ERISTIC, ERISTIC, ERISTIC!

and now...

IRRELEVANT!  IRRELEVANT!  IRRELEVANT!

Once eristic, always to be ignored.

Too bad too, at very rare times you do have some decent thoughts.

TH

TH,regarding Spanish Bay,I pretty much agree with Pat but maybe I'd say it differently.I think Spanish Bay may represent the widest disparity between what is and what might have been.Building code issues aside,the site is world class.I think the golf course is fun to see/play but I was always thinking that somebody really wasted a great piece of ground.Again,I realize that some(a lot?) of the problems were tangential to the architecture.

Pat,I rarely commit the sin of overestimating my abilities-I know my limitations.It's easy because I'm constantly reminded of them by others.As to wishful thinking,my experience(specific to the other topic) would seem to prove otherwise.As to the wisdom of it,I had a blast.What other reason is there to be on a golf course?

[Tom Huckaby]

JME:

Regarding Spanish Bay, my points remain unchanged.  I don't see that it was a fantastic site to begin with; the environmental restrictions and hotel realities are real; and the course as it is is pretty darn good.  It's easy to say what might have been could have been better... but in what fantasy world?

As for the rest, knock yourself out arguing with the eristic.

 

[JMEvensky]

As for the rest, knock yourself out arguing with the eristic.

 

Sometimes you just have to go ahead and let your hands and feet get too close to the cage.

[Tom Huckaby]

As for the rest, knock yourself out arguing with the eristic.

 

Sometimes you just have to go ahead and let your hands and feet get too close to the cage.

Which is of course fine, and good fun... the first 500 times.  Pat and I go back a few years.   

[Ken McGlynn]

Let's knock off the whole Jones family in one fell swoop shall we?

Dad: The Cashen Course at Ballybunnion. What a waste of those beautiful dunes.
Junior: (tie) Spanish Bay and Poppy Hills. They shouldn't allow him inside the gates of the
            Del Monte Forest ever again.
Rees: Sandpines. I believe Bradley Klein kindly called it a "missed opportunity."



 

[Doug Wright]

I have to nominate Arrowhead. It upsets me to think how good it could have been...or could still be someday?

Agree with this re Arrowhead Wyatt. When I've played that course (even long before GCA.com) I'd say "what the hell was he (RTJ II) thinking?" Don't hold your breath for "someday." I'd say there's much more likelihood that Arrowhead returns to pasture land than gets redone.

PS I also agree with Mr. Huckaby regarding Spanish Bay. 

[Wyatt Halliday]

I have to nominate Arrowhead. It upsets me to think how good it could have been...or could still be someday?

Arrowhead returns to pasture land, then gets redone.

 

There's a quote I would like to see. With personal modification.

[Andy Troeger]

Of the two courses being mentioned that I've seen...

I liked Longaberger other than the 4th hole and I think the site was pretty severe all things considered. Its by no means bulletproof, but I'd certainly go back.

Spanish Bay of the courses I've played might be my answer, but from a national or worldly level I think there would have to be better examples. I can see describing it as a missed opportunity, but that may have more to do with the permitting issues than the design itself. There are a few really wonderful holes out there, ironically some of them being the ones AWAY from the water. There are a few clunkers too.

[Mike Hendren]

While not a bad course at all, Fazio's Camp Creek between Destin and Panama City is on a fantastic sandy site with nice elevation changes within a stones throw of the gulf.  Could have easily  made Golfweek's top 100 modern list. 

Jerry Pate's Kiva Dunes is hard against the Alabama Gulf Coast and while good, could have been better given the sandy site, though with less elevation changes than Camp Creek. 

When architects are presented with such rare opportunities, either because of housing demands or entitlement issues, I believe they should relish the chance to do something magnificant.  Both these courses are good and worth playing, but perhaps fell short of the sites.

Mike

[Philippe Binette]

Worst course... best site...

Although I like Jeff Mingay's answer... I'm going to dive on this thread...

In Canada, some have missed a few opportunities to greatness, without producing an absolute disaster though, but building an OK course on a great site is still weak.

Worst absolute course on a great site... I try to avoid going at those places...

I don't know if it counts but the back nine on the Eden Course is really bad... especially with the fact that that needed to be done was to built 6 ok holes and the course would have been just fine with the quality of the front nine.

[Jeff Goldman]

How good was the site at Spanish Bay?  Sure, it's on the ocean, with all the good that goes with it, but how good was the dirt?  Wasn't it an old sand mine that had really detriorated with erosion issues and iceplant and other junk all over the place?  I don't think they could have just mowed out the course, built some greens and started to play.

[Tom Huckaby]

How good was the site at Spanish Bay?  Sure, it's on the ocean, with all the good that goes with it, but how good was the dirt?  Wasn't it an old sand mine that had really detriorated with erosion issues and iceplant and other junk all over the place?  I don't think they could have just mowed out the course, built some greens and started to play.

Excellent... some wisdom coming from Chicago.

See my many posts in this thread, in which I allude to exactly the questions you ask... and because of which it remains silly to call this site "best" anything.....

 

[David Stamm]

Rees: Sandpines. I believe Bradley Klein kindly called it a "missed opportunity."



 

Even though I haven't seen it, after looking at the aerial with TN and how good the land was, this place looks awful. Rees blew it big time.

[Joel_Stewart]

How good was the site at Spanish Bay?  Sure, it's on the ocean, with all the good that goes with it, but how good was the dirt?  Wasn't it an old sand mine that had really detriorated with erosion issues and iceplant and other junk all over the place?  I don't think they could have just mowed out the course, built some greens and started to play.

See the Sandy Tatum interview where he discusses it.  The entire area between the hotel and the ocean was a mined out sand pit.  They created a conveyer belt to carry material about a mile away to fill it in.  I believe Sandy told me its about 4 feet of fill.  From there they layed out the holes and shaped them.  Then amazingly the county came in and declared all of these areas as enviromently sensative, which is the same area they just created.   Marvin Davis and the Pebble Beach Company didn't want to pursue it in court so their hands where tied.

When we did the interview with Tatum one of the questions was, "How often do you go back and play Spanish Bay" and his answer was "never".  He was so frustrated at how the county imposed such limits he doesn't go back even though he drives by it almost weekly.

[Tom Huckaby]

So Mr. Tatum is displeased with how it all went down.  And yes, the ESA's there do suck.

But does this change any of my points?  I still believe the site was not that great, and what's there now is not that bad... so it' can't qualify for inclusion on this thread.  As I read it your post supports this.... well at least the "not great site" part anyway, which really is enough.

TH

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