[George Pazin]

I'm going to nominate every course built in western PA post 1950. We have many wonderful old classic courses (with the obvious headliner Oakmont and the fantastically wonderful duo of Fox Chapel and Field Club, not to mention other less noted yet still terrific courses like Allegheny CC, Long Vue, etc.), yet no one seems to have learned anything from the masterpieces, so we have lots of mediocrity since.

George,

Have you played Olde Stonewall?

That one always lists high on the best public courses in the state, but I normally just blame that on too much IC Light flowing in those burbs. 

I haven't played it, but the pics I've seen have me smelling overrated.

What say you, my good man?   

Waaaaaaay overrated - just ask Matt - but I will say, I don't think the site is all that great, either.

I guess the raters love the steel cutouts of deer - which makes sense, considering you see the real thing all over western PA...

[tlavin]

Bay Harbor is a real stinker, but nothing in my experience compares to the wasted opportunity at Spanish Bay.

[Tom Huckaby]

Bay Harbor is a real stinker, but nothing in my experience compares to the wasted opportunity at Spanish Bay.

Could Spanish Bay have been better?  If one was allowed to put the hotel in a different place, perhaps.  But how realistic is that?  Anyway outside of this fanciful thought, I really don't know... I can't see what could have been done differently.

So....and more importantly...is it a pretty damn good golf course just as it is?  I sure think so.  But then again my home course is a decent but no great shakes muni.  I'd never turn down a round at Spanish Bay.

SO... man I just can't get my head behind calling it a wasted opportunity or putting it on a list of worst courses on best sites.  It's too good to be either, as I see things.

I guess I just have low standards... or maybe, just maybe.... are others' too high?

 

[mike_beene]

Samoset in Maine. I don't understand how that site could have a mediocre course.

[MHiserman]

Mr. Stewart-
Agreed.  Both.
Half Moon Bay-
Ocean and Links.

[Joshua Pettit]

Waterville

[Rich Goodale]

Mr. Stewart-
Agreed.  Both.
Half Moon Bay-
Ocean and Links.

I'll have to stand up for the poor ole whipping boy, HMB.

The original course, as built, was a very good golf course for it's time (early 70's).  It's current state is the result of firstly, the eventual encroachment of the housing component of the development (including trees, both on the course and near the houses), and secondly to changes which have been made in the course--particularly the new (and inferior) 11th hole and the awful mounding (most notably at the 12th green) which Hills added in  in the late 90's (purportedly to get rid of dirt scooped out for construction of the new course).  A few chain saws and bulldozers could relieve the course of much of its claustophobic look, and once you see what is on the gorund (and not in the air) you will see what is still a very good golf course, with no weak holes and more than it's share of very good ones (3-6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16).

As for the new course, I have only played it once, but knowing what the land looked like prior to its construction (I lived in HMB from 1984-1987) and some of the constraints he was under, I think that Hills did an excellent job.

Fire away!

Rich

[Doug Sobieski]

Coin flip between Bay Harbor and Longaberger.

Glad to see a thread where Art Hills is getting a lot of attention 

[Jim Franklin]

Spanish Bay

Ding ding ding, we have a winner. Mr Mucci is right again.

[Jon Spaulding]

Put me down for Half Moon Bay as well.

[cary lichtenstein]

I thought The Preserve in Carmel was designed backwards. The tee boxes were way better sites for the greens.

With all their marvelous land, I thought while the course was good, it had the topography to be way better.

[Tom Huckaby]

Spanish Bay

Ding ding ding, we have a winner. Mr Mucci is right again.

Et tu, Jim-e? 

First, Mucci has to be right ONCE for him to be right again.  So bite your tongue there.

Second, see my comments above re Spanish Bay.  Perhaps your standards are too high, and maybe not based in reality?  Spanish Bay is a hell of a golf course just as is.  And as for it being the worse course on the best site, well you do know it was a freakin' quarry before, right?  Also the hotel was always going to go where it is....

Could it be better, in some Muccian imaginary perfect world where sites are pristine and hotels need not be built?  Sure.

But is it darn good as it is, given the realities of the world? I sure think so.

I really don't see a reality where it could have been that much better than it is.  So worst course on best site?  No way.  It's a pretty darn good course, and the site really wasn't all that great to begin with.

BTW I can't see that Half Moon Bay Old has all that great of a site either... oh I have no great love for that course - Rich defends it well, but includes a few IFs that ain't gonna happen... as it is now, it's condo-canyon golf... hard to love much of that - though there are a few good holes.... Anyway I can't see that course working for this topic either.

TH

[D_Malley]

in philly area i will nominate Edgemont.  the course is mediocre at best, but it seems like the site has soo much more potential.  interested in others perspective on this.

[Tim Leahy]

Spanish Bay

Ding ding ding, we have a winner. Mr Mucci is right again.

Et tu, Jim-e? 

First, Mucci has to be right ONCE for him to be right again.  So bite your tongue there.

Second, see my comments above re Spanish Bay.  Perhaps your standards are too high, and maybe not based in reality?  Spanish Bay is a hell of a golf course just as is.  And as for it being the worse course on the best site, well you do know it was a freakin' quarry before, right?  Also the hotel was always going to go where it is....

Could it be better, in some Muccian imaginary perfect world where sites are pristine and hotels need not be built?  Sure.

But is it darn good as it is, given the realities of the world? I sure think so.

I really don't see a reality where it could have been that much better than it is.  So worst course on best site?  No way.  It's a pretty darn good course, and the site really wasn't all that great to begin with.

BTW I can't see that Half Moon Bay Old has all that great of a site either... oh I have no great love for that course - Rich defends it well, but includes a few IFs that ain't gonna happen... as it is now, it's condo-canyon golf... hard to love much of that - though there are a few good holes.... Anyway I can't see that course working for this topic either.
TH

I have to agree with the negatives on SB. Compare the first five holes at Spyglass Hill with the first five or any of the holes at SB. No one forgets any of the first five at Spyglass and you cant say that about any of the holes at Spanish Bay.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tim:

So that makes it the worst course on the best site?

I'm not seeing it.

I see lots of great golf holes on that course... just as is.  On top of that, the site was not all that great to begin with.

Is Spanish Bay an all-world, top whatever golf course?  Likely not.  It certainly does have its negatives.  But is it pretty damn good relative to all of the world's courses?  Certainly.  Compare it to Santa Teresa, for example.  But that's not the question here, anyway... which is....

Is it the worst course on the best site?

No way.  As I say, it's not a bad course and the site wasn't all that great.

TH

[Jim Franklin]

Chambers Bay was built on a quarry and it is awesome. Spanish Bay missed it by a mile. There are some okay holes there, but there should be some great holes too. Sadly there is not a great hole to be found. Is Spanish Bay the worst course of all time? Not even close, but it had the potential to be great and that is why it is the worst course on an great site.

Mucci was right in regard to NGLA and Garden City so he gets high marks in my book. Sorry Huck.

[Tom Huckaby]

Chambers Bay was built on a quarry and it is awesome. Spanish Bay missed it by a mile. There are some okay holes there, but there should be some great holes too. Sadly there is not a great hole to be found. Is Spanish Bay the worst course of all time? Not even close, but it had the potential to be great and that is why it is the worst course on an great site.

Mucci was right in regard to NGLA and Garden City so he gets high marks in my book. Sorry Huck.

Jim - then we shall agree to disagree.  I don't see that Spanish Bay missed much, if any, of any potential it had IN REALITY (note a hotel was not part of the equation at Chambers Bay).  I also see it as a pretty darn good course, so it can't be the worst anything.  I guess we're gonna be at polar opposites here.

But regarding Mr. Eristic... just WHAT was he right about regarding those courses?  That they are excellent?  Gee, really astute observation there.

Mucci gets zero high marks in my book for discussion here, given he admitted today that nearly everything he states in here is argumentative bullshit (or to put it another way, he's eristic).  He does get very high marks for being a hell of a player, a great guy to hang out with, and an admirable fighter in life and in golf.

SO... citing him as an example for opinions here isn't gonna do anything with me but tear you down, Jim.

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

It got me wondering what is the worst course on a fantastic site?

Wouldn't any reference to (A) The Peter Jans National Golf Club on (B) Golfclubatlas.com clearly meet this definition? 

Pretty darn close, if not THE champion.  Great call.

I do think however that the late great Thunderbird GC, San Jose, CA has been mentioned on this site.  And from what I can see from pictures, the Jans is Augusta relatively.

 

[Jesse Jones]

Longaberger.
A seriously blown opportunity at greatness.

[ed_getka]

I thought The Preserve in Carmel was designed backwards. The tee boxes were way better sites for the greens.

With all their marvelous land, I thought while the course was good, it had the topography to be way better.

I don't know about the first part, but Cary nailed it with the marvelous land should have been so much more part.

Longaberger is one I had forgotten about but it is certainly a contender.

In the end I choose Longaberger. Longaberger only had a handful of good holes and given the property it should have been a LOT better. I think Fazio got more out of the land at The Preserve, although he should have gotten a lot more out of it. That land back there is truly amazingly beautiful.
I would say Longaberger is 3 out of 10 for what was possible there. Preserve is 5-6 out of 10. IMO.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chambers Bay was built on a quarry and it is awesome. Spanish Bay missed it by a mile. There are some okay holes there, but there should be some great holes too. Sadly there is not a great hole to be found. Is Spanish Bay the worst course of all time? Not even close, but it had the potential to be great and that is why it is the worst course on an great site.

Mucci was right in regard to NGLA and Garden City so he gets high marks in my book. Sorry Huck.

Jim - then we shall agree to disagree.  I don't see that Spanish Bay missed much, if any, of any potential it had IN REALITY (note a hotel was not part of the equation at Chambers Bay).  I also see it as a pretty darn good course, so it can't be the worst anything.  I guess we're gonna be at polar opposites here.

Then it's your stated opinion that Spanish Bay is a wonderful golf course ?

But regarding Mr. Eristic... just WHAT was he right about regarding those courses?  That they are excellent?  Gee, really astute observation there.

Mucci gets zero high marks in my book for discussion here, given he admitted today that nearly everything he states in here is argumentative bullshit (or to put it another way, he's eristic).

I never admitted that, that's your necessary conclusion due to the fact that you're so often wrong when it comes to architectural issues.

He does get very high marks for being a hell of a player, a great guy to hang out with, and an admirable fighter in life and in golf.

SO... citing him as an example for opinions here isn't gonna do anything with me but tear you down, Jim.

Jim, the bad machines don't know when they're bad.
Consider Huckaby's disagreement with your opinion as a validation for your point of view.

With respect to my exchange with TH and JME relative to ANGC one would think that experience and wisdom would take preference over wishful thinking and overestimating one's abilities.

Anyone who thinks that Spanish Bay doesn't represent an "opportunity lost" isn't in touch with the site, the golf course and architectural sensabilities.

[Mark Arata]

I really want to say Bandon Dunes.............

I agree totally with Half Moon Bay. I sort of agree with Spanish Bay (but anything was going to have a tough time standing up to the rest of the neighborhood)

[Ray Richard]

Spanish Bay gets my vote. We called Pasa on the tenth tee to get a tee time but they had a tournament so we suffered through the entire round. Try the clubhouse, skip the course.

[mike_beene]

Ray,maybe Spanish lacks(I happen to like it),but if it is miserable to play we all need perspective(or perhaps I missed the tongue in cheek?)

[Ken Moum]

You guys get to play too many really, really good golf courses.

The worst course on a good site is in Topeka, Kansas.

It's called Lake Shawnee GC, and I assure you that it could have produced a fabulous course if the architect had a clue about routing. Sadly, he didn't.

I played it several times a week for two years and instead of growing on me, it grated on me.

What's unfortunate is that half of the holes would be pretty good if you simply reversed the direction.

It is the single biggest waste of a gorgeous piece of land I have ever seen.

K

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