[Lyne Morrison]

Folks - which courses out there provide 'good' examples of incorporating forward tees?

Could we define 'good' as -

      - not distracting those on the tees behind
      - nor interfering with the view along the hole
      - tees that sit quietly, comfortably and appropriately in the landscape
      - and still provide strategic interest for their users...

      - a few examples of work on new courses?
      - examples of new work on older courses in response to demand - any classics?
         I believe Pinehurst #2 and Pebble Beach incorporated forward tees - how successfully?

      - finally, what is the situation with forward tees in Great Britain, Ireland, Europe?


This isn't a question about relevance, searches have revealed that multiple tees are not favoured by some -- but for those who hear where I am coming from - your feedback is appreciated.

Many thanks -- Lyne

[Ally Mcintosh]

I am not giving you any examples here Lyne...

But I think you could go as far as defining 'Good' by saying that the forward tee has the prime topgraphical location for the hole with the back tee not necessarily given the best position and visibility.

[Matthew Rose]

Most Dye courses, thanks in no small part to Alice.

[Jeff_Brauer]

A truly underdiscussed subject.  And to this day, I think most forward tees are under thought out. Even in the original post, I notice that the idea of "strategic interest for their users" only comes in 4th place in a list of criteria, with three other larger criteria suggesting they are perhaps a nuisance to those "men" playing further back tees.  Sadly, that is how forward tees are still approached in design. Heck, even I am guilty!

A female golf reporter with an avid interest in this issue took me around a few courses once to demonstrate just how bad the placement of fw tees was.  We even found two instances on one course where the fw tees were actually behind some trees with a partially blocked line to the fw.

So, I suggest that forward tees are placed first to do no harm to their users golf game, i.e. block users from the fw or place a good 135 yard or so shot in a creek - i.e. a layup tee shot required.  Even a poor view to the fw, or the need to blast a tee shot uphill into a bank isn't very appealing.

Second, they be located to make the total distance of the course work, based on about 135 yard shots.  They should make the total length of the course under 5000 yards to be sure, and I have seen good arguments in favor of shortening the course from these tees to about 4200 yards.

Third, soften the angle of many doglegs, since this level of player will have a higher percentage of missed tee shots, and needs to get around the corner.

Fouth, make absolutely sure they are big enough to provide some teeing options and are absolutely flat - unlevel, small forward tees offend the senses of those who use them, and give the impression they are mere afterthoughts.

Fifth, unless absolutely necessary, keep the tees handy to the cart path to prevent longer walks from path to tee than the back tees have.  Pete Dye would add that women get uncomfortable bending over to tee the ball with men standing behind them, so if at all possible, paths should be on the right side of the forward tee.

After that, I would say that they can be a visual distraction from further back in some cases and Lyne's first three rules apply.  I do, for instance, often build a small ridge behind the forward tee to disguise it from the back tees.

[Ally Mcintosh]

They should make the total length of the course under 5000 yards to be sure, and I have seen good arguments in favor of shortening the course from these tees to about 4200 yards.

Really Jeff?

Based on 5 sets of tees I suspect?... Or a short course?

What if you want three sets of tees for a Members Club with the back ones at about 6,800 to 6,900?... I guess you recommend four sets in this case...

What if the budget isn't there?....

Maybe all of this is more prevalent for outside of the USA...

[jeffwarne]

I played a simulator game yesterday with the option of boosting power up to 60%.
A better solution than 6 sets of tees in my opinion would be balls of different distance capabilities.
a woman playing a 4200 yard course is playing a completely different game as the fairways are nearly as wide as the length of her shots

[Sean_A]

I must say that I am no fan of 5 sets of tees based on yardage.  To me this indicates an undue significance placed on the rear tees at the expense of forward tees.  Alternate tees should first be looking to create width and varying angles.  Of course, significant yardage can lobbed off for forward tees, but a critical element should also be the creation of width and angles.  Belwo are some examples of odd forward tees.

#17 Beau Desert: why is the tee placed on the right when the easier angle for the shot is down the left?  Furthermore, while the tee is in and of itself attractive, if it were down the left it wouldn't stand out as much as "on the line" of the back tees. 


#16 Beau Desert:  Right, the forward placement is about right to make the carry, but why isn't the tee raised like the back tee?


#15 Beau Desert:  Here is a wonderful chance to create loads of width with the tees as there is land o'plenty out to the right.  What is done instead?  On the plus side, the tees are foreard enough to give the short hitter a good chance to over the natural hazard in 2, but it isn't too easy.


#14 Beau Desert: What do folks think of this tee sticking out like a sore thumb on a hole with a negligible carry?  I would ditch it and extend short rough back to the tee some 15 yards.


#12 Beau Desert: Another great opportunity to create width out to the left gone amiss.  What is the point of sticking a tee here?


Beau Desert #6:  Another tee floating out there offering a terrible angle for the forward hitters.  At the very least, another tee should be built down the left - again more out of sight of the back tee and uses the contours of the fairway to better advantage.


#2 Beau Desert: Yet another great chance to create width with tees that goes begging.  All that room right to give the forward the hitter the option of playing the easier angle.


Ciao

[Jeff_Brauer]

Ally,

Um, yeah, I'm sure, depending on site conditions and all, of course. And yes, I usually recommend five sets of tees, unless the back tee length is under 7000 yards.  As courses stretch to 7600 yards, six sets would probably be better.

I have never hears supers complain about the budgets for tee maintenance, but we have actually been reducing and "fine tuning" tee sizes lately, and making them square just to make them most efficient use wise - i.e., build no more than you really need for purely artistic reasons, kind of like the old days.

Its simple math, really. If my goal is to allow the 135 yard hitter to theoretically get around the course in the same 36 strokes as others, then the maximum length is 135 x 36, or 4860 yards.  Naturally, its quite a lot more fun if the second shot isn't always max length, so if we figure the average second shot at 100 yards, then a desired distance is 4230 yards, on normal ground, of course. 

In reality, as we look at idividual holes and where hazards are, etc. it usually comes out in between. I also think most women and seniors who play these tees expect to not be able to reach every green in regulation, and in fact may score better when their approach shots come up just short of green side hazards and they get to use their short game to score.  Every course is different, but I think fw tee players appreciate a course under 4800 yards, and of course, the "two tee sets" for women is becoming more popular, with the better players preferring to play from 54-5700 yards, about where the typical "senior tees" are located.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Thanks Jeff,

I wasn't questioning you so apologies if it sounded like that.

I think that we have developed a lot of Golf Courses in Europe over the past number of years that do no allow for the fact that short hitters are exactly that: "short"....  i.e. you do need tees of around 4,500 yards... We frequently see resort courses with the forward tees at 5,300 or 5,400 yards...

After just checking a couple of recent high-profile courses, these were the first three I came up with:

The Belfry - 5,800 yards (4 sets)
Gleneagles PGA - 5,350 yards (5 sets)
Loch Lomond - 5,460 yards (4 sets)

[Jeff_Brauer]

Ally,

Those numbers aren't all that atypical.  You can go back a year, and I was quoted in the WSJ about needing shorter courses, though.  We sometimes complain about women and beginners slowing play, but at 55-5800 yards we are forcing them to hit perhaps 9-10 extra shots per round over longer hitters, at about 3 minutes per shot. 

We are also forcing them to play a lot of max length shots.  I know I play slower if I am hitting 3 woods to greens all day, because I miss a heck of a lot of greens.  And, more to the point, that kind of golf isn't very much fun.

[Peter Pallotta]

Lyne -

I can't offer any examples of well-sited forward tees. I'm not saying examples don't exist, just that I don't know enough to think of any.

But I've read the numbers that Jeff cites, i.e. around/just under 5,000 yards, from other sources too, and that number seems to make sense to me.

Which means that I can't think of a harder task for an architect than to site a truly good set of forward tees.

I think for that to happen, the architect would have to START with the forward tees, i.e. design his/her best golf course around THOSE tees, and then work from there to try to add interest/fun/strategy to the back markers at 7,000 yards or so.

But I can't imagine that happens very often.

Peter

[John Moore II]

Tobacco Road makes good use of forward tees. Many of them are not visible at all from the back tees. Holes 1 and 4 come to mind as holes where you really have to look for the forwards most tees. And generally, I would say they are placed on the better angle to the fairway so as to provide the best angle into the green.

[Mark Smolens]

Most Dye courses, thanks in no small part to Alice.

Amen to this.  TPC Sawgrass being the best example.  Not just the forward tees, but even the difference between the whites and the blues -- my high handicap friends had no fun at all when they insisted on coming back to the blue tees (too much carry over hazards), but when they drove (sorry Mr. Morrow) up to the white tees, the course was playable and fun. . .

[Tom_Doak]

Sean A:  In fact, the men's tees are often built up just as stupidly as the forward tees you illustrate so well in your post -- they just don't stick out so much because they're bigger and because you're not looking over them from behind.

Peter:  You are correct, that to design a really good course at 5000 yards you would have to think about those tees first, and then plan the rest around them.  This is seldom, if ever, done (even by Lyne I suspect).  The funny thing is, the same problem exists between the Tour pro back tee and the member's tee on 99% of modern courses, because the difference is scale is just as much, but fewer people seem to notice the problem.

[Doug Ralston]

Jeff;

Thanks for the support. I am a 58yr old arthritic, likely in his last year of golf. Well, that too is life. But I am glad some of you are considering that carefully the needs and desires of those of us who do not drive it 300yd [or even 200yd *sigh*]. I love challenges, even if my % of success is not as high as most. It is true I want A CHANCE to reach greens in regulation, but that is not all. I hope to be confounded by as many of the features as can possibly be within my lesser range. I realize it is virtually impossible to get them all in play from every distance, but it sounds like you try hard. This is good.

BTW: I am truly hoping to visit Giant's Ridge and Wilderness this year. Depends on events yet unborn.

Doug

[Peter Pallotta]

Tom - very interesting comment about the pro tee's relationship to the member's tee. I don't  wander back there, so I've never noticed or thought about that. But it made me wonder whether Jones and MacKenzie planned Augusta around the member's tee or the back tee; and, today, about the nature of the challenges and/or strategies faced by amateurs who play from the back. 

Lyne - I meant to ask you: what is YOUR experience with the forward tee? Do you think 5,000 yards makes sense, both from an architect's perspective and from that of the average golfer? Have you had (or can you envision) the opportunity to try to design the golf course "around" those tees?

Peter   

[Sean_A]

Sean A:  In fact, the men's tees are often built up just as stupidly as the forward tees you illustrate so well in your post -- they just don't stick out so much because they're bigger and because you're not looking over them from behind.

Tom

Hhmmm, you do realize that I am a VERY big fan of grade level architecture - no?  So yes, I do very much realize that men's tees are often and unnecessarily built up.  Part of what causes this is the original tee was built up so the back tee must be built up.  The resulting look is a load lumps sticking out of the ground.   If the men's is gonna be built up, then the forward tee right next and in front should be as well as one continuing lump.  But I digress, if width rather than yardage were the main concern with alternate tees then even the odd buildups (mostly for drainage purposes) wouldn't stick out nearly as much.   

Ciao

[Lyne Morrison]

Thanks all -

Ally - nicely said. I've checked the websites of the courses you mentioned. Budget ?... always somewhere else to direct funding it seems. Agree that many don't recognise 'short hitters are exactly that' and how it translates to play on the course.

Matt - indeed. The contribution Alice Dye has made shouldn't be underestimated.

Jeff - 'A truly under discussed subject', that's what I'm thinking. While its been addressed in the States we seem to be a little behind. You know I hadn't noticed your point about prioritising the criteria - but there it is, a touch of subliminal guilt. All good points, well stated as always - thank you.

Jeff Warne - Now there's a thought - that could help - and it would be fun too. But how could it be regulated? coloured balls? ....what would Melvyn think? ...crikey! (some of the women at my club use crystal type balls....perhaps thats something else though..)

Sean - Grateful for your images, thanks for taking the time to post them and the added detail. Some good examples there of missed opportunities, I'll hold on to these if you don't mind. Love that heath.

Peter, Tom - Good point re siting the forward tees first - and yes it can be a challenge to please all - such is life. And Tom, very perceptive - although I'd like to think that while my mind is on the back tee the bigger picture is not too far away, where possible/reasonable at least.

John and Mark - I had a look at the Tobacco and Sawgrass sites also, good to hear you appreciate just what it's all about.


Appreciate the feedback, cheers -- Lyne

[Lyne Morrison]

Peter,

I have limited experience with the forward tee, not too many of them out here... most often seen on the resort courses via an American architect.  And I'm happy to defer to Alice Dye re the yardages, I feel she has it figured. When I worked for Robin Nelson we addressed the forward tee, that's a while ago now. They pretty much remain uncharted territory here in Oz and traditional clubs can find such ideals .. somewhat foreign or uncomfortable.

I do have a great deal of experience with poorly sited women's tees though on regular members courses and the effect that these have on higher handicapped women, seniors and juniors. Until you play with these golfers you cant fully appreciate what is going on for them - Doug touched on this in his post.

I used to not give this a lot of thought myself, thinking (wrongly) that the back (tips) was where things really mattered. Thankfully I am a little wiser these days. I see these golfers out on the course, hitting away, shot after shot and on it goes. Many of the seniors still remember what golf used to feel like - they have their memories -  when it was fun - - while now its a matter of catching up with friends and a bit of fresh air. And the others struggle along, grateful for their hybrids, having no idea how good the right approach shot can feel.

These golfers make up a fair percentage of the field, they pay the same fees, they are a relevant part of our community. My feeling is that they should be acknowledged by the traditional clubs. They should be able to play the game and experience the thrill it can deliver - in a similar way to the longer or younger golfer.

It doesn't need to be the way it is down here at the moment and it shouldn't be the way it is. We can do better. And if we are going to look after the game - my feeling is that we need to do better. (naturally just my opinion - and yes the US is a leader in this regard)

Peter - I'm working on such a layout at the moment - but we should remember the remodelling field, where we can help the regular golfer - this of equal importance .

Thanks for your interest,

Cheers - - Lyne

[Mark Pearce]

Isn't it also a problem for women's golf that courses (at least in the UK) tend to provide only one set of ladies' tees?  I understand why Jeff talks in terms of 135 yard shots but there are many women golfers significantly longer than that.  My wife drives the ball around 200 yards and would, I'm sure, be frustrated by being forced to play a 4,500 yard course.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mark,

You must have missed the very end of my post that said,

"and of course, the "two tee sets" for women is becoming more popular, with the better players preferring to play from 54-5700 yards, about where the typical "senior tees" are located."

I have had it work out perfectly where the forward two sets of tees both work out for different "classes" of female players.  The typical senior tee is based on 180-200 yard tee shots, so it would be perfect for your wife.

[Mark Pearce]

Mark,

You must have missed the very end of my post that said,

"and of course, the "two tee sets" for women is becoming more popular, with the better players preferring to play from 54-5700 yards, about where the typical "senior tees" are located."

I have had it work out perfectly where the forward two sets of tees both work out for different "classes" of female players.  The typical senior tee is based on 180-200 yard tee shots, so it would be perfect for your wife.

Jeff,

Mea culpa, I did, indeed, miss that.  I haven't seen much of this in the UK.

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