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John Foley

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Moonbrook CC - Jamestown NY
« on: August 09, 2007, 08:43:07 PM »
Had the pleasure to play at Moonbrook CC in Jamestown NY this past week. Old course with some very good greens, a coup[le very good par 5's and a few strong Par 3's. It was alluded to being a Willie Park Jr design. Checked Whitten book and it lists:

Willie Park 1919
William Harries - add 9 1928
William & David Gordan - Renovation 1958
RTJ - Renovation 1959

Does anyone know who made what design changes & has anoyone else every been there?

Doug Wright or Scott Burroughs have you seen it?

Sorry no pics.
Integrity in the moment of choice

Sean Remington (SBR)

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Re:Moonbrook CC - Jamestown NY
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2007, 08:42:22 AM »
  Grew up in Jamestown but only got to play MCC a few times as a junior. Compaired to what I grew up playing Moonbrook fell huge. The conditions where always very nice.  The biggest recent change to the course was when the expressway was put in. I guess it impacted a few holes, made #1 a dogleg left. There should be some photographic records available. Would like to hear more about it. Thanks John and GO SABRES!

John Foley

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Re:Moonbrook CC - Jamestown NY
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2007, 09:09:22 AM »
Sean,

Thanks for the reply. Had no idea we had another western NYer out here.

I can see the changes due to the highway on #1. I'll see what I can find out from the course because it was a very good hidden gem.

John
Integrity in the moment of choice

Sean Remington (SBR)

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Re:Moonbrook CC - Jamestown NY
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2007, 03:17:55 PM »
Hey John,

And Sabres fan to boot. Live in Philly now and looking forward to Danny's debut. Anyway, MCC is one of the best conditioned in the area. They have held the NYS Am there, several times I think.  The other gem in Chautauqua Co. is Chautauqua Golf Club, the old course by D. Ross.  -  Sean

Doug Wright

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Re:Moonbrook CC - Jamestown NY
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2007, 08:31:41 PM »
John,

I have played Moonbrook only once, many many years ago in a high school match. I remember it was a classy private club course especially compared to others in the area, with some well bunkered greens, great conditioning and a lot of large stately trees. At that time (late '60s) there was a marked difference between the several newer/changed holes that had been changed fairly recently due to the Route 17 highway construction; those holes had hardly any trees and were out of character with the rest of the course. That's probably changed a lot now, though I suspect many of the older trees that were there back then were lost to Dutch elm disease.

Twitter: @Deneuchre

Doug Wright

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Re:Moonbrook CC - Jamestown NY
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2007, 01:16:59 PM »
John,

Take a look at this terrific history of Moonbrook done in 1992 by a member who was around at the club's inception in 1920! He describes the original Willie Park nine holes, which appear to have encircled the second nine built by someone else in the late 1920s. There's another history on the fine Moonbrook website from 1957.

http://www.moonbrookcc.com/weeks.html

http://www.moonbrookcc.com/tour.html
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Sean Remington (SBR)

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Re:Moonbrook CC - Jamestown NY
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2007, 06:24:58 AM »
Doug - Which High School did you play for?  I went to Cassadaga Valley, small school so we didn't get to play at great places like Moonbrook with Jamestown and Southwestern.

Doug Wright

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Re:Moonbrook CC - Jamestown NY
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2007, 11:34:32 AM »
Sean,

Olean HS. Our home course was Bartlett CC in Olean, not a bad course though it had an original, more interesting 9 with tiny greens and a totally different newer 2d 9 with huge greens. We played some decent courses, with Moonbrook being one of the best, and some unbelieveably bad cow pasture dog tracks.
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Moonbrook CC - Jamestown NY
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2009, 09:10:44 PM »
Bump...
Don't know if Remington or Wright are still on the list, although I know Foley is.  I'm raising a bottle of WNY's finest to those nondescript southern tier courses.  For all the gorgeous rolling hills we have between Buffalo and Pittsburgh, it would be great to have some money and some population to have created some better golf courses.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

John Foley

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Re: Moonbrook CC - Jamestown NY
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2009, 10:11:36 AM »
Ron,

I drive around the state and am amazed how good the topography in the rectangle from Buff - Syr - Bing-Jamestown. Rolling hills, adaquate sources of H20, good (but not great) soils.

There is enough population around to make some good courses (Stafford, Moonbrook, Mark twain etc..) but in today's economics making it is soo difficult. I remeber when I was at Bonaventure we couldn't sniff a round at Bartlett. Now 28 yrs later it might as well be a public course.

Integrity in the moment of choice

Sean Remington (SBR)

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Moonbrook CC - Jamestown NY
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2009, 10:30:03 AM »
   Not much golf going on in WNY these days. Lots of snow this year since Thanksgiving. But I agree that the area some great potential.  My family has roots in the area of Allegany State Park.  I have always thought it would be cool to build a course in the or near the Park.  Maybe a mini Bethpage set up?


Chris_Blakely

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Re: Moonbrook CC - Jamestown NY
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2009, 11:50:21 AM »
William Harries did the orginal 9 holes at Shorewood Country Cluib in Dunkirk, NY sometime in the 1920's.  The original 9 holes are quite unique with built up greens and deep fairway and greenside bunkering.  When I first played it, I thought Raynor / Banks, but after looking into the course found out that Harries built it.

Chris

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Moonbrook CC - Jamestown NY
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2009, 03:06:25 PM »
Now THERE'S a thread a-begging:  William Harries, creator or defiler?  He is THE ODG figure in golfing circles in WNY, yet a great majority of his creations are not worth the land they inhabit.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Moonbrook CC - Jamestown NY
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2009, 04:46:22 PM »
Now THERE'S a thread a-begging:  William Harries, creator or defiler?  He is THE ODG figure in golfing circles in WNY, yet a great majority of his creations are not worth the land they inhabit.

Ronald,

I have only played one of his courses, far from a fair amount to make an accurate judgeent on him.  However, the 9 holes he designed at Shorewood, I thought were prety good.  I am going to go back and look at my photos from the course.

Have you played Shorewood?  What did you think of the front 9? 

Chris

John Blain

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Re: Moonbrook CC - Jamestown NY
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2009, 04:52:22 PM »
Didn't William Harries do Brookfield CC which is a terrific course and also Westwood CC which isn't quite as good but not bad nevertheless?

Shorewood is awful. Sorry.

John

Chris_Blakely

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Re: Moonbrook CC - Jamestown NY
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2009, 04:55:13 PM »
As for Shorewood, I liked the front 9, hated the back 9.  I know that I playhed it several years ago, but I would remember a truly "awful" course.  I think I took some photos of the front 9, I will give them another looksie.

Chris

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Moonbrook CC - Jamestown NY
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2009, 05:34:33 PM »
Harries did Audubon, Brighton, and Sheridan near Buffalo.  The first two are flat and uninspired; the third was the greatest public track in WNY until the holes across Sheridan Drive were sold to a chemical company and lost forever.  They were replaced by some uninspired and makeshift replacements on former softball fields.  Sheridan hosted the 1962 USGA public links.

Harries also did Brookfield and Westwood but, even there, you can see the lack of inspiration that dogged his work.  He seemed unable to build the interesting hole, more intent on flattening the ground and making boring putting surfaces whenever possible.  Unless an unconquerable natural phenomenon (creek or hill) caught him by surprise, his holes simply inspire yawns.  Brookfield, site of the 1984 USGA Junior won by Charles Rymer (of PGA tour and television renown,) is difficult only when the greens are fast.  Westwood has a handful of good holes but was built on flat land that Harries was unwilling to mold into a sculpture of any recollection.

The interesting note is, Harries was a member at Cherry Hill Club in Ridgewa, Ontario (just across the Niagara River,) home to at least one (#18) of Walter Travis most savage, uncivilized greens.  How Harries could not have been influenced, if not inspired, by Travis work, is beyond my ken.

Another Moonbrook note is that it was the last stateside competition in 1953 for Ben Hogan (he played an exhibition match with three other pros) before he voyaged to Carnoustie to claim his only British Open title.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Ed Homsey

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Re: Moonbrook CC - Jamestown NY
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2009, 05:50:55 PM »
This thread caught my eye because, as a western New Yorker, I've always heard good things about Moonbrook, but never had the opportunity to play it.  And, then William Harries gets in the mix.

Ron mentions Harries' connection with Cherry Hill Club, and wonders why he wasn't inspired by the work that Walter Travis did there.  I agree.  In fact, Harries is credited with having built CHC.

A question of Ron--or whomever might know--the Cornish/Whitten book, Architects of Golf lists Thendara Golf Club in its Harries golf course list.  They indicate that he added 9 holes there.  It has always been my assumption that it was the back nine at Thendara.  Does anyone know if there is truth to this?   

John Blain

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Re: Moonbrook CC - Jamestown NY
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2009, 06:23:07 PM »
Ed,

One nine at Thendara was Ross but I'm not sure about the other nine. It could very well have been Harries.

Speaking of Brookfield CC and Ben Hogan, he won the the 1948 Western Open at Brookfield CC.

And speaking of Moonbrook I understand that they are doing some significant work to the golf course.....Jeff Sluman won the 1978 NYS Amateur championship at Moonbrook. :)


Scott Witter

Re: Moonbrook CC - Jamestown NY
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2009, 07:02:03 PM »
Ed:

I have a few conversations with the super at Thendara re: your questions.  He said they have dwgs that clearly indicate Harries designed 9 and Ross the other 9.  I have been there several times and it couldn't be more obvious.

Re: Brookfield, I have a very good aerial photo of the course from 1927 where it shows that it was 27 holes.  However, the most astounding thing in the photo is the character of the bunkering.  Very dramatic, organic and many well-placed, not normally associated with William Harries work with several cross bunkers and even some center line bunkers--nothing like I have ever seen from Harries before.  So this leads me to think he wasn't the original designer.  Someday we will have to compare notes over a cold one at the club ;)

Doug Wright

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Re: Moonbrook CC - Jamestown NY New
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2009, 07:47:08 PM »
Bump...
Don't know if Remington or Wright are still on the list, although I know Foley is.  I'm raising a bottle of WNY's finest to those nondescript southern tier courses.  For all the gorgeous rolling hills we have between Buffalo and Pittsburgh, it would be great to have some money and some population to have created some better golf courses.

Ronald, I'm still here, though (in Matt Ward-speak) a loooooooong way away from WNY (Denver). My first thought about golf course architecture was while riding through the drumlins near Penn Yan on my way to Hamilton College. I thought those drumlins, which are glacial deposits left during the ice age that created the Finger Lakes, would yield some really cool golf holes.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2009, 08:31:34 PM by Doug Wright »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Moonbrook CC - Jamestown NY
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2009, 08:21:49 PM »
They used one of those northern drumlins as a centerpiece for Paul Albanese's Mill Creek near Rochester.  In fact, they can't use the word "drumlin" enough in their marketing.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!