[Sean_A]

I was mentally going through a round at Muirfield the other day and I can honestly say that the course as a pure test of golf doesn't really have any flaws.  Sure we could point to rough, but I think Muirfield has been famous for its rough for many a year.  That said, something holds me back from really taking to Muirfield and for lack of a better term I think it is down to the course having little charm.  Jeepers, even Troon gives us the Postage Stamp!  Like few clubs I know it is essential to spend time wandering through the rooms of the Muirfield clubhouse.  Is this because the course doesn't have that certain something (which North Berwick down the street has in spades)?  What say you?  Can anyone think of other great courses which are perhaps lacking in charm?  Why is the idea of charm so important especially when it can often render a course less than ideal?

Ciao 

[Cliff Hamm]

To me charm equates to the fun factor and to a certain extent quirk.  If a course is a brute but not 'fun' it lacks in charm.  Many of the championship courses might fit this criteria.  Winged Foot is certainly a brute - would anyone say it has charm?   Baltusrol? Medinah?, etc. etc.  All excellent tests of golf for the best players in the world.  Are they 'fun' though?  If not they also lack charm. 

The opposite might be said of a course like Tobacco Road.  The pros would destroy it, but it exudes quirk and fun. 

Charm is essential if golf to you is about the fun factor .  If one is looking for the ultimate challenge charm is not as important.  When charm and challenge are combined it's a 10.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Sean,

I'd give Swinley Forest, St George's Hill, Royal Ashdown, St Enodoc, R W Norfolk and many another top marks for charm. It's a pleasure just to be there even if you are not golfing.

For lack of charm I suggest Royal Lytham - great test of golf, but it's hard to love it; West Lancs - good course but bleak; The Belfry - which is testing enough, but still feels like a potato field; The Oxfordshire - just a blot on the landscape, however probing it may be; Prestatyn - very good golf course, but an unattractive place; Royal Dublin, perhaps?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Sean,

I'd give Swinley Forest, St George's Hill, Royal Ashdown, St Enodoc, R W Norfolk and many another top marks for charm. It's a pleasure just to be there even if you are not golfing.

For lack of charm I suggest Royal Lytham - great test of golf, but it's hard to love it; West Lancs - good course but bleak; The Belfry - which is testing enough, but still feels like a potato field; The Oxfordshire - just a blot on the landscape, however probing it may be; Prestatyn - very good golf course, but an unattractive place; Royal Dublin, perhaps?

I happen to think Royal Dublin is full of charm.... Playing out and back along Bull Island after crossing the old wooden bridge to a lovely clubhouse...

There are more charming courses certainly... But I don't think it deserves to be on the list.

[Rich Goodale]

Sean

I think that Muirfield oozes charm, particularly on the front 9 which is nearly flawless, but also on 11, 13, 16, 17 and 18.  The other 4 are pretty charmless, but 14 out of 18 ain't bad.  North Beriwck doesn't have as good of a batting average, although I'll admit that it is goofier.  Maybe you are confusing charm with quirk?

Rich

[Sean_A]

Mark - I agree, Lytham doesn't have much charm - not really my sort of place, but there are a few cracking holes there!  Yes, Swinley is very charming, but I would suggest that the club and course come together to create that impression.  On the other hand I didn't find St Georges Hill all that charming, but it is a bloody good course that I really enjoyed.   

Cliff - I am inclined to say Tobacco Road is very charming.  It certainly has something which makes me overlook the long, dusty walk involved in playing the course.

Rich - Perhaps I am mixing up charm with quirk, but isn't that ok?  Charm is that something which helps make something attractive to me and without a doubt a bit of quirk lends itself charm.  It is interesting and probably quite telling that you believe Muirfield to have bags of charm.  I think you really like the tough tests of golf which go a long way to separating the wheat from the chaff.  Whereas I will rarely find courses like this appealing.  It probably has something to do with our differences in the importance of proper card and pencil competition.  In any case, what is charm to you?  I know I am finding it very difficult to put a finger on it.

Ciao

[BCrosby]

As Tom Simpson said once about Colt's changes to Muirfield, they are "featureless, by reason of their OBVIOUS and STRAIGHTFORWARD character... Now in Golf Course Design, the obvious thing is almost invariably the wrong thing"... Simpson went on to say the holes at Muirfield in question had a "complete lack of subtlety…"

Professional jealousies aside, I think Simpson was on to something. And so is Sean.

Rich - I'm not sure charm and Muirfield fit easily in the same sentence. Are you confusing charm with some combination of exacting, testing and relentless? Though I do think the 17th is a wonderful hole.

Bob

[archie_struthers]

 


Would Carnostie fit the bill...never been there , but it looks rather harsh . bleak and unforgiving ....but again , I"ve just got books and  the telly

[Tom Huckaby]

Would Carnostie fit the bill...never been there , but it looks rather harsh . bleak and unforgiving ....but again , I"ve just got books and  the telly

GREAT question.

Rich's answer to this will be telling.

As for me, well it's been a few years since I've been to Carnoustie, but I would say you have it mostly correct, Archie.  "Charming" is not an adjective I'd use for that golf course.

But of course it is all relative.  There are some charming shots to be played there... and as compared to my local munis here in San Jose, CA, well even Carnoustie is charm-packed.

As is Muirfield....

I just also think this is very difficult to define.  I am very curious how Rich defines it... because I kinda found Muirfield to be pretty charming also - not in the way that N. Berwick is, for sure - but heck stacked-sod bunkers alone are gonna give a course a charm that I can't get here... not that I guess that is what Rich means at all... I'm thinking he might be more on to fun shots to be played... and Muirfield certainly offers a lot of those, particularly on the holes he lists....

TH

[Gary Slatter]

from first tee to final putt I think Carnoustie has more of that "charm" than Muirfield. 
Add the clubhouses and Muirfield is the most charming, to me.
Torrey Pines lacks charm, the New Course has it, the Jubilee doesn't.  Elie and Lundin have it. One course at Crail has it, the other does not. 

interesting, all personal opinions.

[Mark Pearce]

It won't surprise anyone to learn that I agree with Rich regarding Muirfield, except that I'm surprised not to see 15 on his list, it's one of my favourite holes on the course.

Slaley Hall is in a beautiful spot but has no charm whatsoever.  In fact it's positively rude.

[David_Madison]

I'm gonna' get slammed here, but Bethpage Black, is not charming. Surely a great test of golf at a championship level, but not charming.

[Kyle Henderson]

While I haven't played any of them, I get the same charmless impression (from others comments and television viewing) of Medinah, Firestone, and a majority of the TPC courses.

Can anyone speak as to their charms?

[PCCraig]

100% Medinah.

[Kalen Braley]

This is a tough one to nail down from a definition standpoint, but here are some possibilites to consider when trying to figure out if said course is "charming":

The power or quality of pleasing or delighting
To be alluring or pleasing
To cast or seem to cast a spell on
A particular quality that attracts

[Rich Goodale]

Mark

I tend to lump together and often confuse 12, 14 and 15.  If 15 is the one that has a downhill approach and a cool green, I'll throw you a bone.

Gary

You've got it regarding Carnoustie and Muirfield, but you should, since you are the pro!

Tom

I'm not into definitions tonight, but I think of charm as in "charming." North Berwiick makes you smile, Muirfield charms you.

Bob

If you are not charmed by Muirfield, so be it, but I would be also be very interested in what "charm" means to you, particularly in the golfing sense.

Sean

Sure you can mix up charm and quirk if you want to, just as you can mix up apples and oranges, but neither does much towards advancing dialogue an dfuture knowledge.

Rich

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom

I'm not into definitions tonight, but I think of charm as in "charming." North Berwiick makes you smile, Muirfield charms you.

That definition works PERFECTLY for me Rich - thanks.

So perhaps Carnoustie is also more charming than one might otherwise think?  It certainly has worked a certain magic on me....

TH

[Bill_McBride]

We played the back nine first the one day of 36 holes that I played at Muirfield, and I have to say there were some holes that I thought were rather charming right off - once I got past the shock of having my caddy suggest I lay up in front of the cross bunkers on #10!

I thought the uphill, aim at the post tee shot on #11, and the well positioned green on #12, and the uphill par 3 #13, were all charming aspects of the course.  The wall to the left of #9, the vast field of bunkers in the corner of #8, this is all good stuff.  #6 with the hole sliding around that hillside....

But #17 is the real cracker, one of the best par 5s anywhere.

[Mark Pearce]

Mark

I tend to lump together and often confuse 12, 14 and 15.  If 15 is the one that has a downhill approach and a cool green, I'll throw you a bone.

I think you're thinking of 12.  15 is flattish, has a drive with a string of (Colt) bunkers in ecehelon and a large, undulating green, which I think is rather cool.  It's the one before 16.

[Peter Pallotta]

I always found Sir Alec Guinness charming, Sir Laurence Olivier not at all.  Cary Grant was charming, James Mason rarely so.  Despite his plain-speaking faux-modesty, Spencer Tracey was never charming. Burt Lancaster could be charming, at least on occasion, while Kirk Douglas not so much.  Alastair Sims (born: Edinburgh, Scotland) was utterly and perfectly charming as Mr. Scrooge.  All of them could deliver the goods, but the charmers did it less overtly and with less apparent effort, less self-consciousness, less seriousness, and less self-importance. They gave the audience what it paid for, but with some grace and style thrown into the mix.

Hope that helps

Peter
There is no one who, for my tastes, has such good taste in golf courses as the charming and tasteful Sean Arble.   He can even get away with telling someone to "suck scissors". 

[Mark Pearce]

the charming and tasteful Sean Arble.   

Sean?  Charming? 

You haven't played with him, have you?

[Peter Pallotta]

Mark -

I was hoping to one day. Why, are you saying I shouldn't? What's the deal - is he one of those guys who comes off good in print, but is a stinker in person? I hope not. He writes such bloody good course profiles!

Peter

[mike_malone]

 Aronimink. Not being charming doesn't mean it is bad. Is the opposite of "charming" "brawny" ?

[Kalen Braley]

On the related flip side of this, a course like Pacific Grove is sort of the opposite.  No one is going to mistake it for being a world class course, and the front 9 is not exactly the best, but to me the place just oozes charm.

Between its 2 varying 9s, short holes, doglegs, awesome views, and epic holes running thru the dunes on the back 9, it  just really really works in my mind and the experience is greatly enchanced by its abudance of charm factor.

[Niall C]

I always found Sir Alec Guinness charming, Sir Laurence Olivier not at all.  Cary Grant was charming, James Mason rarely so.  Despite his plain-speaking faux-modesty, Spencer Tracey was never charming. Burt Lancaster could be charming, at least on occasion, while Kirk Douglas not so much.  Alastair Sims (born: Edinburgh, Scotland) was utterly and perfectly charming as Mr. Scrooge.  All of them could deliver the goods, but the charmers did it less overtly and with less apparent effort, less self-consciousness, less seriousness, and less self-importance. They gave the audience what it paid for, but with some grace and style thrown into the mix.

Hope that helps

Peter
There is no one who, for my tastes, has such good taste in golf courses as the charming and tasteful Sean Arble.   He can even get away with telling someone to "suck scissors". 

Peter,

I don't know if I would agree with you on all of the above but it is an interesting way of defining charm.

Can I suggest that perhaps Muirfield would equate to Burt Lancaster ie charming on occasion.

I would never have thought Carnoustie charming. However having now played it 4 or 5 times and having gone from being overwhelmed by its toughness long before the finish, to now being up for the challenge if not equal to it, I guess you could say that I have been charmed.

Niall

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