Interesting recent quote from David McLay Kidd....

[Rich Goodale]

.....regarding the Castle Course at St. Andrews:

"I had gone from a 14 handicap during Bandon to an 8, and had a different approach as a result.......  I didn't feel I had a lot to lose.....  I wanted to take risks, because I knew I could.  After all, I was only building golf courses, not something like a skyscraper that could fall down."

I think these are provocatively honest and minimalist throughts.  What think ye?

[TEPaul]

Richard the Minimalist Provacateur:

What do YOU think the connection could be between Kidd going from a 14 to 8 handicap and therefore wanting to take more architectural risks? 

Oh well, let me ask you another question to jag your brain waves. What do you think the possibility is that if Kidd can somehow manage to get as good at golf as Jack Nicklaus was that he will then understand what a REAL golf shot is and therefore create architecture just like Jack's? 

[Melvyn Morrow]

Rich

Interesting view but I can honestly say I have never enjoyed Skyscrapers, but then I have a slight problem with heights, but golf course have not only been very interesting but most entertaining and enjoyable so in MHO no comparison.

As for the Castle course, well the design and course may turn out to be enjoyable to many.  I still think the site is totally out of character with what its tries to represent. Although many may not understand, it’s like putting an open air (sorry open to the environment) swimming pool on the moon – it looks alien in that landscape.

Can’t shoot the designer but regrettable the blame looks to rest on the shoulders of The St Andrews Links Trust.

Melvyn

[Rich Goodale]

Richard the Minimalist Provacateur:

What do YOU think the connection could be between Kidd going from a 14 to 8 handicap and therefore wanting to take more architectural risks? 

Oh well, let me ask you another question to jag your brain waves. What do you think the possibility is that if Kidd can somehow manage to get as good at golf as Jack Nicklaus was that he will then understand what a REAL golf shot is and therefore create architecture just like Jack's? 

Hiya Tommy

All I think is that Kidd thinks that he sees golf differently as an 8 than he did as a 14.  This seems logical to me, and I also think that there is a qualitative difference between a 14 and an 8 which does relate to a better understanding of risk and reward (as there is between an 8 and a 4 and a 4 and a and a 2 and a 2 and a 1, asymptotically down to and On  Beyond Zebra (oops, I meant Zero....).  It would surprise me if if this phenomenon didn't translate into some sort of different understanding of and attitude towards architectural risks.  I also think that there is a difference between the approach of those architects who come down during their career (e.g. Mackenzie) and those who go up (e.g. Moran and Doak), but I'm not sure what that difference might be.

As to the reductio ad absurdum argument regarding Nicklaus, thgat is, of course, absurd, due to the asymptotic nature of the phenomenon mentioned above.  In fact, my "research" tells me that the 4-8 handicap region is the one which produces the greatest archictects, because of the fact that they have feet in both the camps of the hackers and the artists.  Those above can find it hard to really understand the artistry of the game the pros play and those below (e.g., Woods, Nicklaus, Paul, etc.) often have no understanding as to what it is like to play from anywhere but the middle of the fairway.

Keep on truckin'

Rich

[Rich Goodale]

Hi Melvyn

I understand your feelings about the Castle Course, but somebody had to do it, didn't they, once the Links Trust decided to go ahead with the project?

My interest in the Kidd quote is not course specific.  If he had said it about Tetherow or wherever I would have found it just as interesting.

Cheers

Rich

[TEPaul]

Richard The Magnificent;

You know, what you just said in that last post would not have meant a hill of pistachio nuts to me had you not thrown the all important asymptote in there!!! (you actually used asymptotically). That was the key that provided instant and eye-popping clarity!

You are one incredibly brilliant man; do you know that?

Unfortunately, I might have a problem in the long term with totally accepting the validity of the asymptote without first completely analyzing the validity of the fundamental symptote itself.

[Peter Pallotta]

Rich - it strikes me as either astonishing bravado or remarkable self-assuredness, or both.

Excuse me, can you tell me how to get to Carnegie Hall?
Practice, man, practice!

Peter 

[TEPaul]

Well, Peter, that's more encouraging than what one of those droll old Maineites would tell you if you asked him how to get to Carnegie Hall.

[Peter Pallotta]

TE, Rich -

One of the talents (or aspects of temperament) that I most envy about the modern architects we like around here is their ability to study and revere the great works of the past while not being crushed under the weight of too grand/noble expectations for their own work;  their capacity for honouring the ghosts of the past while not being overwhelmed by those ghosts; and their knack for keeping their eyes on the prize, project by project and over the course of a career, while at the same time being able and willing to make the compromises sometimes demanded of them by clients (without which compromises they'd soon not have any career at all).

When I was working professionally in a field/art form that I cared a lot about, I wasn't able to do any of that, or at least not enough of it.  I no longer work in that field.

DMK seems to be saying to himself and to others that he CAN do that, and do it very well.

Peter 

TE - I can imagine them saying "My dear boy, if you have to ASK you'll never get there"

[Rich Goodale]

TE, Rich -

One of the talents (or aspects of temperament) that I most envy about the modern architects we like around here is their ability to study and revere the great works of the past while not being crushed under the weight of too grand/noble expectations for their own work;  their capacity for honouring the ghosts of the past while not being overwhelmed by those ghosts; and their knack for keeping their eyes on the prize, project by project and over the course of a career, while at the same time being able and willing to make the compromises sometimes demanded of them by clients (without which compromises they'd soon not have any career at all).

When I was working professionally in a field/art form that I cared a lot about, I wasn't able to do any of that, or at least not enough of it.  I no longer work in that field.

DMK seems to be saying to himself and to others that he CAN do that, and do it very well.

Peter 

TE - I can imagine them saying "My dear boy, if you have to ASK you'll never get there"

Thanks, Peter

I think as we read (in books and on here), many of the best architects have (or have had) world-class egos.  In part it is because they are that good, and in part because so many people tell them that is so

As for the Mainiacs, they probably said something like "Just head Down East young fella," and anybody who followed their advice ended up in New Brunswick and was never heard from again....

Rich

[Jaeger Kovich]

Just something to note... Kidd's company lists the handicap of every employee in the office next to their picture and bio on their website. They are the only firm I have seen do this.

http://www.dmkgolfdesign.com/team.aspx

[Ronald Montesano]

I'm appalled that not one of you has broached the topic of exactly what aspect of his game dropped his 'cap six smart strokes.  Did he work on his putting and chipping?  Gauge his 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4 wedge shot distances?  Improve his iron play?  Switch drivers?

To go from a 14 to an 8 is to essentially become an 82 shooter with the odd 78 thrown in.  Remember that the majority of courses Kidd will play should have fairly high slope and ratings values...he's not playing the Jans nor Grove Cleveland muni (site of the 1912 USGA Open.)

My hope is that he's hitting low slinging hooks instead of Nicklaus' high fades.  Then he'll approximate the average golfer in shot values.  Well, include high slices, pushes, etc...actually, he couldn't be an 8 with that repository of shots.

I'm paraphrasing poorly, of course, but one of my favorite admissions from King Jack came when he discussed what he had learned about internal putting surface movement from Tom Doak while building Sebonack.  Perhaps Kidd had a similar epiphany during his handicap weight reduction phase.

[Jed Peters]

My favorite from his website:

Home > Portfolio
Fiji (private island)

A private course on a private island for a very private client.

[Neil_Crafter]

My favorite from his website:

Home > Portfolio
Fiji (private island)

A private course on a private island for a very private client.

if you build a private course on a private island for a private client have you actually built it? (trees falling in forests etc etc)

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

My favorite from his website:

Home > Portfolio
Fiji (private island)

A private course on a private island for a very private client.

if you build a private course on a private island for a private client have you actually built it? (trees falling in forests etc etc)

By that reasoning, it would have to be the best course in the world ever...

[Jeff_Brauer]

Rich,

Not sure the quote has anything to do with minimalism....how do you figure that?

BTW, true story, but one reason I am in golf architecture is that my Dad, knowing of my interest in design, would sometimes bring architecture books home from his Saturday trips to the library.  Well, one was on "lawsuits against architects" and covered boiler explosions, building collapse, etc.  About the time I read this, I played my first round of golf and decided a golf course couldn't fall down, so I wouldn't get sued!  So, it was an influence on me, too.

[Rich Goodale]

Jeff

You are right.  I was interpreting "minimalism" as you did vis a vis your father's advice, i.e. compared to compared to the demands, consequences, permanence issues and liabilities of building architecture, GCA is a doddle.

Rich

[Melvyn Morrow]

Rich

Reading some of the topics on here makes me wonder if we have totally lost the plot. We make everything complicated, we try to quantify natural and breakdown Nature into different segments, yet we still fail to produce the ultimate course.

Nature is perfection personified so let’s copy or mirror her and stop trying to change her. Old King Canute thought the word and hand of man could control her by trying to turn back the sea. Alas has man not yet learnt to work with Nature. It will in the end achieve more for minimal outlay of money and effort.

Perhaps, just perhaps the 19th Century first true designers understood and we have been trying to catch up ever since.   

Melvyn

[Jed Peters]

Just something to note... Kidd's company lists the handicap of every employee in the office next to their picture and bio on their website. They are the only firm I have seen do this.

http://www.dmkgolfdesign.com/team.aspx

Another thing I noticed Jaeger is that they're all chops.....

[Jaeger Kovich]

My favorite is they lady at the bottom of the page who they list as a 36 and is "willing to learn!"

[Joe Hancock]

Just something to note... Kidd's company lists the handicap of every employee in the office next to their picture and bio on their website. They are the only firm I have seen do this.

http://www.dmkgolfdesign.com/team.aspx

Another thing I noticed Jaeger is that they're all chops.....

I know for a fact that at least one of them can be had...you just have to get in his head. Not mentioning names but his initials are Nick Schaan.....

He actually is better than me, but I semi-enjoyed beating him a time or three....

Joe

[Jed Peters]

They're not all chops--it looks like there's a few guys in there that can hit the ball! Nick included.....

[Jerry Lemons]

 I played my first round of golf and decided a golf course couldn't fall down, so I wouldn't get sued!  So, it was an influence on me, too.

Jeff, Having seen a course "fall" (Actually slide off a hillside) you may have a false sense of security!

Jerry

[Nick Schaan]

got to love ya Joe  we need to hook up again and tee it up for a propper match where we get to play all 18 holes!

[Joe Hancock]

got to love ya Joe  we need to hook up again and tee it up for a propper match where we get to play all 18 holes!

Followed by ping pong and ice cream......

Hope you're well.....call me sometime.

Joe