Do these bunkers evoke the style of any particular ODG

[Bryan Izatt]

Following are two aerials of a course under construction, along with an on-the-ground picture of the bunker style (although not from either of the two aerial holes).  Do these geometric shapes and banked backs evoke a golden age bunker style.  If so, which architect?

[John_Cullum]

Is this a DL3 by any chance?

[cary lichtenstein]

How do they mow the bunker faces?

[Phil McDade]

Bryan:

The high lips depicted in the photo certainly look like some of the bunkering built by Langford and Moreau on courses such as Lawsonia.

[Scott Witter]

Bryan:

To me the ground shots look similar to Raynor, or MacDonald bunkering as well as L & M.  The aerial pic's don't as much, especially the three bunkers that are shaped in the soil on an the adjacent hole across the road.  Those look too modern to match the style with those that have sand in them.

[Phil McDade]

Note the differences in the aerials. This black-and-white photo, about 15 years old, depicts Lawsonia's bunkering. Note the narrow nature of nearly all of the bunkers (the larger and wider bunkers in the lower-right of the aerial are from the newer of the two Lawsonia courses, not a Langford/Moreau).

[TEPaul]

The question was asked above by John Cullum (but not answered) if the course in the aerial above is one of DL3's projects.

If it is one of DL3's projects a similarity to Macdonald/Raynor's bunker style would make a lot of sense because the fact is DL3 and his company have become very enamored with the Macdonald/Raynor style of architecture. But they are apparently also enamored with Ross' style and so they often refer to their own particular style as "Rossnor."

Personally that has always made me sort of scratch my head because the style of Ross and the style of Macdonald/Raynor (at least their bunkering styles) seems so very different to me. 

[Bryan Izatt]

John,

Yes, it's a DL III - River Hall near FT Myers.

Cary,

Not sure how they're cut.  Probably by hand with a flymo, I'd guess.  High maintenance presumably.

Phil,

The high lips do look like the L&M bunkers in your pictures, but the rectangular and "L" shapes seem nothing like the Lawsonia bunkers in your aerial.  

Scott,

I see on another thread that it was stated that DL III was a fan of Macdonald/Raynor and Yeaman's Hall.  I haven't had the opportunity to play any of their courses, but would this bunker style and the cops be similar to their style?  They do look similar to the pictures in Ran's Yeaman's write-up.

[TEPaul]

On the other hand, the creativity of the DL3 company, particularly when our own Paul Cowley is involved is and can be pretty cool and out-side-the-box thinking.

One of these days I think Paul really is going to weigh in with an architectural feature he refers to as "Alien Debris Mounds".  If he does I expect golf and golf architecture to rise to a whole new and different level in the future!  

Matter of fact, I think the Rules of Golf may even have to address both play and particular relief from "Alien Debris Mounds" as it is bound to be extremely different somehow from any other area in golf we have ever known before.

[TEPaul]

Bryan:

I believe the course that really got the DL3 company's attention with the style of Macdonald/Raynor was Chicago GC, and particularly when Davis and Mark first went to play it.

I believe Davis also has quite the affection for the Harley Davidson motorcyle company (as he does have a very special "Ape Hanger/Low Rider" HD). And one of his children is also quite the accomplished competitive equestrian and so I would both hope and expect that Davis and the DL3 company can develop some golf architecture feature and style that is an important combination of the the Hell's Angels motorcycle gang, for instance, AND the style of the aristocratic and elite world of equestrianism.

AND, if they can't actually get to the point of producing such a combination for golf architecture at least trying to cogger up how to combine two such diverse styles might seriously occupy their "winter months" thinking down there in St. Simon Island, Ga.

[Scott Witter]

Bryan:

Again, the ground photos you provided are very similar to the Raynor/MacDonald style, but not so much the aerial shots.  Geometric shapes, on one hand can work with their style, but I always felt that Raynor and MacDonald were very conscience about where and how they positioned their bunkers to really be strategic or penal depending on the design.  Without seeing more of this course in the photos it is impossible for me to say what DL3 has done, but IMO it is likely that they took the time to research Raynor/Macdonald enough to respectfully honor their style.  Certainly, Yeaman's comes to mind as does Chicago, Sleepy Hollow and many others done by this fab duo.

[Bill_McBride]

Very Raynor-esque but more reminiscent to me of Mountain Lake rather than the more muscular style of Yale for example.

[Scott Witter]

Kelly:

Your name has been absent for quite some time, glad to see it appear again.  No surprise re: your comment about the narrow bunkering.  Your use of them at Lederach (I hope I have the right course) was VERY interesting and I thought effectively strategic in ways that at first wasn't so obvious.  At the time I saw your course and from aerial shots, my first reaction was a link between your use of the 'finger' bunkers and some of those by L&M such as in the photo here.

[John_Cullum]

I have encouraged many on this website to take in DL III's (Fred Couples Signature) Sanctuary Cove about 20 miles south of Brunswick GA. It has an abundance of rectangular bunkers and greens et at a variety of angles. Personally, I don't care for the look, but I believe it to be architecturally significant. I have not seen any other course from any age where these rectangular features are so prevalent. It almost appears digital

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bryan,

I think it's hard to tell from the aerials.
I'd like to play those holes and see the bunkers from ground level.

I do however, like the third picture of the bunkers.

They appear shallow with substantive fronting berms to impede advancement.
Often, soil conditions dictate bunker depth.
Where bunker depth isn't an option, I like the treatment of shallow bunkers where the fronts are raised to provide an impediment to advancing the ball from the bunker, an impediment to rolling the ball through the bunker, "texture" and visual signals.

It would seem unlikely that DL3 or any other architect would design their bunkers based on how they will look in aerial photos.   One would imagine that architects prefer to design bunkers for the golfer's view, with the aerial view being an unintended consequence.  I would posit that a bunkers function coupled with the tactical signal sent to the golfer's eye, would be the base criteria.

But, TEPaul could be wrong. 

[Phil McDade]

Kelly:

The "skinny" bunkers at Lawsonia are quite playable, in terms of their width, as opposed to some photos I've seen of bunkers at, say, Myopia, which look really skinny. The chief impediment to playing out of the skinny Lawsonia bunkers is the high lips that L&M designed on the faces of the bunkers -- you can advance the ball forward, but really not that far -- it's often a 8-9-iron out of them, or wedge, depending on how close one is to the edge.

One of the things I like about the bunkering at Lawsonia is the elongated nature of the bunkers, on a line with the direction of a poorly struck shot. The aerial shows several "pairs" of what RJ Daley has dubbed "gull-wing bunkers," and a poor shot (a fade too far, an overcooked draw) runs the risk of catching the bunker, because it extends out along the line of flight. The two pairs of gull-winged bunkers on #17 (upper-right of photo, with the hole running SE at a 45-degree angle toward the middle of the picture) are a particularly good example of this.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I would posit....

Where? 

In paragraph IV

Do you use this word often in the company you keep?


No, I usually go with postulate, axiom, promulgate or decree, depending upon the company I'm in.

I think strategy is as much determined from a bird's eye as it is from a level eye, giving due respect to significant topographical changes.

When's the last time a golfer paused, made a phone call and had a U-2 or SR-70 do a flyover to get a better perspective on the strategy available to him vis a vis aerial presentations ?

Golfers receive but one dominant sensory perception when playing golf and analyzing the hole/shot, the visual perception provided by their eyesight, not reconnaissance photos.

[Bryan Izatt]

I have encouraged many on this website to take in DL III's (Fred Couples Signature) Osprey Cove about 20 miles south of Brunswick GA. It has an abundance of rectangular bunkers and greens et at a variety of angles. Personally, I don't care for the look, but I believe it to be architecturally significant. I have not seen any other course from any age where these rectangular features are so prevalent. It almost appears digital

Strangely, I played Osprey Cove (assuming it's the one in St. Mary's, GA), but it was some years ago and I don't remember it well, but from the current aerial I don't see a lot of rectangular bunkers.

[Bryan Izatt]

Patrick,

You'll have to see it from ground level for yourself, as always.  Regrettably, the day I played I was really sick and didn't feel like taking pictures.  Not to mention we only got in 13 holes before it got dark (the $20 green fee seemed to attract a LOT of people).  My only observation for you would be that a lot of the fairway bunkers were very cop-like, in the old style, somewhat like those at the Lake Placid Club (although those were more of the long thin variety than rectangular).  More stark than in the one picture above.  The rectangular feature didn't stick out on the ground, although I may just have not been near those bunkers.  In any event from an aerial view and from a ground view they are radically different from the ragged, free form amoeba shapes that seem to be preferred now.

Not to speak for Kelly, who I'm sure is now energized enough to do that for himself; perhaps, he was trying to say that the architect might take a bird's eye view when strategizing and designing a hole (aren't all hole drawings a bird's eye view).  Players presumably react to what is in front of them or what they have learned from repeated playings.  That is unless they are using one of those new fangled GPS systems that provides aerial views of the holes, sometimes with flyovers even. 

[Scott Witter]

Kelly:

I have not had the experience of posting on a thread that vaporized, but my work has certainly vaporized as of late

You are energized--good, well how so/ and can you explain why/how you feel these long bunkers as they appear here and as you have used them before are strategically more effective, or dynamic in ways that perhaps other 'typical' bunkers have missed the mark?

I also hope you are energized by new work

I like Phil's explaination and RJ Daley draws a tangible connection IMO to what I believe is a primary reason why they can be so effective.  I guess this could also be accomplished simply by a large ass bunker (but anyone could do that), instead of long narrow 'fingers' but then large gaping bunkers would be more expensive to maintain, more costly to build and probably take away from the scale and proportion of the hole and site.  On the other hand, plenty of highly regarded architects of the past and present have used large bunkers very well so what the hell do I know   Not sure if this was in your mind when you designed Lederach, but I am interested in hearing more

[John_Cullum]

I have encouraged many on this website to take in DL III's (Fred Couples Signature) Osprey Cove about 20 miles south of Brunswick GA. It has an abundance of rectangular bunkers and greens et at a variety of angles. Personally, I don't care for the look, but I believe it to be architecturally significant. I have not seen any other course from any age where these rectangular features are so prevalent. It almost appears digital

Strangely, I played Osprey Cove (assuming it's the one in St. Mary's, GA), but it was some years ago and I don't remember it well, but from the current aerial I don't see a lot of rectangular bunkers.

My mistake. I meant to say Sanctuary Cove

[paul cowley]

Wow Sarge.....that was fast recognition, I'm impressed.

I almost missed this thread as I have been at a closed west Texas border crossing for four days running around arroyos with little signal.

The style pictured is one we have employed on a few courses constructed in recent years at;

Kinderlou Forrest
Forest Oaks
Sanctuary Cove
River Hall
Irish Creek

We rarely base how our designs on how they will look or play from aerial or plan views....usually these decisions are based on ground frame references.

In fact its always interesting to see the results from above as its never really connected to how things look from below......designers that spend too much time two dimensionally please take note.

River Hall was a totally flat site that was elevated 3' on average by having to dig numerous lagoons of which we tried to keep out out of play.....and as such was one of our flattest sites.

I think this style works great on flat sites where you have to base strategies in a very straight forward way....bunkering and greens complexes that have to be able to be read by building up marginally from the flattish ground plane.

I guess we could build corridor framed mounding and bunkering to achieve strategic definition, but that has been used before.....and I [we] like the simplicity and clean lines that occur in the courses above.

Now for Alien Debris Mounds, as per Tom P, they tend to be a tad more complicated , and require a special site of sorts......but I think I need to drink another glass of radon water and figure more on that one.

[Andy Silis]

Paul;

Kudos to you and your team on River Hall.

Fellow GCAer Evan Fleischer and I played it this past summer when our family vacations coincided.

It was a refreshing change from the typical Florida track that exists on a flat site.

Strategic options were well employed and the course played firm and fast.

You really had to think your way around the course............especially off the tee.

With the firm conditions in place you really had to calculate the potential roll out of your drives in relation to the fairway bunkering.

I liked the variety in the greens as well.............some with very pronounced slopes and others with subtle rolls and fall offs that made you really think about the type of approach shot you needed to hit.

I would give it a solid 6 on the Doak scale.

Hopefully the course and the development will survive with the free fall in the FL real estate market.

I know it's original development plan was for a private club with housing but I have to believe with a location that is a ways out from the greater Ft. Meyers metro area they have to be struggling.

[TEPaul]

"My guess would be President Kennedy."


Kelly:

Given the question that evoked that response from you, that answer is downright hilarious! Unfortunately it seems like President Kennedy's next phone call was to Sam Giancana, the boss of the Chicago Mafia!

[Ed Oden]

Paul:

Interesting to hear you think this style works particularly well on flat sites.  As you know, Irish Creek is anything but flat.  I have no idea whether the bunkers at Irish Creek have a similar geometric shape from an aerial view.  But from the ground, they are visually striking, strategically located and fun to play.  So if the style is similar, then based on Irish Creek I'd say it works equally well on hilly sites.

For what its worth, Irish Creek definitely has a mature golden age feel about the place.  I suspect that if a group of GCAers played with no knowledge of architectural credit, most would think it to be a restoration of an ODG design, although they'd likely differ as to which one.  No doubt some of that is attributable to the fact the new course is located on the same property as a previously existing course and utilized the existing corridors on many holes, albeit often in reverse or in very different ways.  But the old school feel would not have resulted if the bunker style and green complexes didn't match the maturity of the site.  Congrats to Paul and the rest of the DL3 team for making it work.

Ed