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Richard Choi

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What are the Best Flat Courses in America?
« on: January 10, 2009, 11:06:52 AM »
When I think of great golf courses and great golf architecture, the one ingredient that is consistent among my favorites is the use of elevation changes to bring additional dimensions to both visual and strategic elements of the course.

Dramatic elevation changes also often inspire great vista and brings that special something to a course which cannot be duplicated in a flat course.

But perhaps I am not giving flat courses their deserved due. Certainly many of the greatest courses in Scotland are flat (The Old Course, Carnoustie, etc.).

So, what are some of the very best flat courses in American in the opinions of this clubhouse?

And how do they compensate for the lack of elevation changes?

I will define "flat" as no more than 10 feet of elevation change in any hole (excluding OB and hazard areas).
« Last Edit: January 10, 2009, 11:15:03 AM by Richard Choi »
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Gary Slatter

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Re: What are the Best Flat Courses in America?
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2009, 11:11:10 AM »
Richard, I think prefer "flat" courses, elevated tee shots get pretty boring. :)
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Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Joe Hancock

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Re: What are the Best Flat Courses in America?
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2009, 11:23:14 AM »
Having not been there, does Seminole meet this criteria?

Joe
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Adam Clayman

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Re: What are the Best Flat Courses in America?
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2009, 11:26:16 AM »
The Rawls belongs on any short list. The use of short grass as a hazard, along with undulations on firm ground, elevate the fun and challenge factors to qualify it as one of the best flat course in the U.S.

The over use of Vista tees has ruined too many routings to be worthy of praise. An occasional one that works well within the routing, is acceptable.  
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: What are the Best Flat Courses in America?
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2009, 11:28:04 AM »
Joe Hancock,

No, not unless you use Tom MacWood's description. ;D

Pine Tree, Boca Rio, Old Marsh, Doral, The Medalist and other flat courses in SouthEast Florida come to mind, with Pine Tree being at the top of the list.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2009, 04:29:18 PM by Patrick_Mucci »
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Jonathan McCord

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Re: What are the Best Flat Courses in America?
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2009, 11:35:11 AM »
I would include Indian Creek Country Club on the list, but 10 ft. is REALLY flat.  #1,9,10,11,12, and 18 would exclude ICCC from being considered.
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Joel_Stewart

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Re: What are the Best Flat Courses in America?
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2009, 11:48:47 AM »
Quote from: Joe Hancock on January 10, 2009, 11:23:14 AM
Having not been there, does Seminole meet this criteria?

Joe

Probably not.  The rise on the 2nd hole and then down on the 3rd would disqualify it.

I'll add Riviera which may be a stretch.  The drive on the first is downhill but other then that, it's a surprisingly flat course.
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Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: What are the Best Flat Courses in America?
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2009, 11:50:21 AM »
Champions is a good flat course. Seminole has a ridge running through it. The Concession is not bad either. I also like Maidstone in the world of flat.
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Mark Pritchett

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Re: What are the Best Flat Courses in America?
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2009, 12:43:28 PM »
When I think of flat I think of the Hilton Head area.  Chechessee Creek, Secession, Spring Island, both Colleton courses, Long Cove and Harbour Town.

Not sure if any of those qualify as the "best" flat course , but for a mainly flat area the SC lowcountry has some pretty good courses of interest.

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Michael Whitaker

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Re: What are the Best Flat Courses in America?
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2009, 01:03:55 PM »
The Ocean Course at Kiawah & Harbour Town have to be two of the best flat courses anywhere in the US.
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Bill_McBride

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Re: What are the Best Flat Courses in America?
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2009, 01:08:25 PM »
Even though Forrest doesn't like the curlique routing, I'm a big fan of Talking Stick North for the poster child of flat courses.
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Mark Pritchett

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Re: What are the Best Flat Courses in America?
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2009, 01:22:10 PM »
Thanks Michael I left off the Charleston area and the Ocean Course, which is certainly the lowcountry.
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C. Squier

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Re: What are the Best Flat Courses in America?
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2009, 01:29:20 PM »
Chicago Golf Club
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Will E

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Re: What are the Best Flat Courses in America?
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2009, 01:37:20 PM »
TPC Sawgrass
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Jim Nugent

Re: What are the Best Flat Courses in America?
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2009, 01:42:41 PM »
Joel, what about the drive on #18 at Riviera?  Also, does #5 have some rolls in it? 
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Mike Wagner

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Re: What are the Best Flat Courses in America?
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2009, 01:51:23 PM »
Richard,

I believe you're a northwest guy.  Check out Skyridge in Sequim.  It has become my favorite course in WA state.  It's dead flat, very challenging, and some of the best greens in the state.

Mike
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Pete Lavallee

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Re: What are the Best Flat Courses in America?
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2009, 02:44:29 PM »
If the criterion for flat is less than 10 feet of elevaton change, Riviera definetly doesn't qualify; there is considerable slope from the 17th tee to the 18th green.

I'll nominate Kittansett Club; the only elevation change there is in the mounds, which are rock piles covered with earth. The course is suprisingly strategic despite the dead flat site. The mounds in concert with sahara bunkering on the par 5's provide all the interest one needs when the wind blows. Even the majority of the pushup greens, especially the ones most exposed to the wind, have little height. The greens on the interior of the course are the most interesting. Although the course is surounded by trees, the scrub oak and pines are no larger than 20 feet tall, increasing the effect of the sea breeze.
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Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: What are the Best Flat Courses in America?
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2009, 02:58:12 PM »
Talking Stick North in Scottsdale quailifies.


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Bill_McBride

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Re: What are the Best Flat Courses in America?
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2009, 03:03:40 PM »
Quote from: Clint Squier on January 10, 2009, 01:29:20 PM
Chicago Golf Club

That corner with the Redan, Eden, etc isn't really that flat.  That must have been pretty contoured because Raynor wouldn't have moved that much dirt, do you think?  That also a pretty nice hill going up to #17.  Is that supposed to be the Alps hole?
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Bart Bradley

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Re: What are the Best Flat Courses in America?
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2009, 03:05:45 PM »
Harbor Town?

Bart
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C. Squier

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Re: What are the Best Flat Courses in America?
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2009, 03:19:46 PM »
Quote from: Bill_McBride on January 10, 2009, 03:03:40 PM
Quote from: Clint Squier on January 10, 2009, 01:29:20 PM
Chicago Golf Club

That corner with the Redan, Eden, etc isn't really that flat.  That must have been pretty contoured because Raynor wouldn't have moved that much dirt, do you think?  That also a pretty nice hill going up to #17.  Is that supposed to be the Alps hole?

The pic below is from the 12th fairway looking back to the clubhouse and the other is obviously the redan.  I've only played CGC once, so I don't remember every detail but it was one of the easiest walks I've ever had.  Could also have something to do with the excitement of actually playing it too, I'll admit. 

Dave, I think CGC v. GCGC would be a fun debate.  Though similar pieces of ground, they had distinctly different feelings for me.  GCGC felt like every hole was by itself, I believe from the relatively high fescue separating them, while at CGC you have a much bigger feeling of being part of the entire course. 

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mark chalfant

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Re: What are the Best Flat Courses in America?
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2009, 03:21:32 PM »
Inwood, NY    
CC of Detroit (Alison)
CC of Charleston, SC   (Raynor)  fabulous bunkering


Inwood succeeds by doglegs, excellent bunkering, and exposure to wind.  It is worthy of study, partly designed  by H. Strong.  Inwood has an excellent set of greens that are both bold and fun to play.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2009, 03:25:29 PM by mark chalfant »
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Steve Lapper

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Re: What are the Best Flat Courses in America?
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2009, 03:37:12 PM »
Don't forget to add in:

Yeaman's Hall
Winged Foot West
Fairfield CC
Hollywood CC
Hidden Creek

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John Foley

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Re: What are the Best Flat Courses in America?
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2009, 03:40:23 PM »
How about Kittansett??
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Brian Joines

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Re: What are the Best Flat Courses in America?
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2009, 04:16:31 PM »
Quote from: Steve_ Shaffer on January 10, 2009, 02:58:12 PM
Talking Stick North in Scottsdale quailifies.




Agreed. I think Talking Stick North and May River are the two best flat courses I've played.
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