Mtn Time Zone -- Best Private & Best Public ...

[Matt_Ward]

Kalen:

I agree that Redlands Mesa is a good course -- the issue is how it stacks up against other more recent Engh courses and after that where such Engh courses stack up against the best of the time zone.

Check out the excessive containment mounding found at Redlands Mesa -- the 17th is but just one example. There are others. Engh has moved away from such blatant elements and you can see that to a lesser extent with Lakota Canyon Ranch and even more so with Four Mile Ranch.

Redlands Mesa reflects Engh at a certain point in his design career -- the more recent efforts have shown a clear evolution and in my mind, a better and more complete approach. I don't know if you have played Four Mile Ranch but if you have not then when you do play it I believe the details I mentioned in this post and elsewhere will be there for you to see and possibly appreciate even more.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
For what its worth, I'm very confident one of the fellows from Engh's office told me that the 17th at Redlands was a fairly natural site--there certainly is some created mounding at Redlands but I don't think that's a good example.

Looking through my photos I don't see much more containment mounding at Redlands than I do at Pradera. What's the difference in your mind since you like the Parker layout better than Redlands? Lakota has containment canyons--who needs mounds 

I would likely go 5-5 on Redlands and Four Mile personally--they both have a large share of strong holes and a couple that didn't make a great first impression with me. As noted they both make my current top ten publics in the Mtn Time Zone.

[Kalen Braley]

Matt,

I don't recall much containment mounding at RM, but I'm sure there was a bit here and there.  But if we're being honest, the redudant half-pipe fairway drop-ins at LC bothered me a lot more than anything at RM...even though I felt LC was a better course overall.

In the end though, its not really about any of the templates Engh uses, its simply that his courses are great fun to play.  And fun on the course scores lots of points with me.   That being said, it doesn't bother me if Engh has 3-4 courses in the top 10, if thats the way it works out then so be it.

This list is not about which of Enghs work in the MTZ is best...its about the best courses regardless of who built what.

[Adam Clayman]

I'm sure the opinions on which course is better, RM v. LC, is not as cut and dry as Matt's opinion on his opinion is. (how's that for proper? )

The two courses are mirror images on certain aspects. i.e. The front at Redlands is within the housing part of the project, while it's on the back at LC. 

LC's back is on a tight strip, while RM's front is more spread out. The one shotters on RM's front are quite good, much more memorable than LC's front save for #9. LC's close is very demanding and the home hole, while not strictly unique, can be rather perplexing, extremely penal and can leave a sour taste for golfers who may not get off on the difficulty aspect.

Redland's back nine is sublime in it's setting. While thats not part of the GCA, it is directly related the retail golfer's experience.

I forget which hole # (12, 13?) at Redlands, the short two shot with the caders framing the tee shot  to a fall away wavey green, is the best hole on either course.

[Matt_Ward]

Adam:

Don't have time to go into total details -- but if you think the 18th at LCR is "perplexing ... extremely penal ... (leaving) a sour taste" then you must have missed a few items it does have.

The key to the hole is what it provides in terms of strategic options. The player has to decide if laying-up in front of the cut-off point is beneficial -- some will gain from hitting their second shot to the far landing area on the right. There's also no free pass for the longer hitter because the 2nd shot to the green is fraught with danger - save for airtight execution.

The scoring options can range from the rare eagle to anything including TB or worse. The setting for the hole works wonders to conclude a round that has as much action as any Indiana Jones movie ever provided.

Redlands Mesa provides a eye-candy element that's hard to ignore but there are few holes there with real depth and strategic calculations.

Take the 10th at Redlands Mesa -- it is an absolute low level par-5 holes. The strong players just grip and rip and will have nothing more than a short iron to a green that is nothing more than so-so.

I do agree with you that Redlands Mesa does have its better elements once you get beyond that hole. The inner half offers a good bit more than what you see with the front. Although, the finale at RM is really a letdown. It could have been much better than what's there now.

Lakota Canyon possseses the better array of holes -- although the 1st hole for me is just too severe at the turning point. A bit more subdued of a turning point would encourage the bold play from the tee. Now, you just hit towards the botton of the hill and advance the ball from there.

The 2nd is a solid mid-length par-4 and the compelling contours of the par-3 3rd are really fun to play. The uphill par-5 4th could very well be one of Engh's best holes I have played. The downhill 5th invites the bold play down the left side -- if you can execute.

The 6th is another solid mid-length par-4 -- especially when the pin is tight to the far right rear. The par-3 7th always plays a bit longer and not being able to see the pin where it's situated can be quite unnerving. The downhill par-4 8th -- assuming one can climb all the way back -- is fairly pedestrian because it represents a similar shot value situation already encountered.

You love the 9th at Lakota -- but I don't see the hole as being really special. It's totally contrived and created by man's hands. I do concede the tee shot can be quite demanding especially when it's pushed tight to the left side.

The really weak hole on Lakota Canyon for me is the 10th -- it simply lacks anything of real character. After that you've got a quality mix and match of holes right through to the conclusion. Yes, it's on a "tight strip" but you never get the claustrophobic feeling of housing hanging in your face when playing the holes.

One further thing -- one of the best par-4's Engh has ever done is at Lakota Canyon Ranch -- the 16th. A gem of a hole.

If people see Redlands Mesa and Lakota Canyon being near equals then I will certainly say they must have missed plenty with the New Castle layout. What Engh created at Redlands Mesa -- he went a clear few steps ahead with his work there.

[mike_beene]

I can't pinpoint why,but I have always thought Cherry Hills had a great routing flow moving you around the property without an up and back feel;yet it still feels very connected.

[Matt_Ward]

One of the more interesting discussion items is how Colorado -- which lies smack dab in the center of the Mountain Time Zone possesses the best of both worlds -- private and public.

Be interested in what people see as the second best state. I'd have to say AZ would likely make it but Utah may have the better bonafide depth among the public courses -- interesting to see what others say.

[Andy Troeger]

One of the more interesting discussion items is how Colorado -- which lies smack dab in the center of the Mountain Time Zone possesses the best of both worlds -- private and public.

Be interested in what people see as the second best state. I'd have to say AZ would likely make it but Utah may have the better bonafide depth among the public courses -- interesting to see what others say.

Wait, I tried to say exactly that on a previous thread about AZ and CO and you were adament that Arizona had as good of private golf as CO. Have you changed your mind?

I haven't played enough in Utah to know if it matches AZ on the public side, its certainly a better value in Utah for peak season golf.

[jkinney]

Matt Ward- What about Eagle Springs (Wolcott, CO) in the private category, probably the last course Weiskopf and Morrish did together ? Have you played it ?

[John Moore II]

JKM,

Thats all fine and good..I chalk it up to personal preferences.  I have played at least twice as many rounds at South Mountain than TP, so I guess I've voted in that sense.

Well, given where you live and the prices they charge, if I was in your situation I'd play South Mountain twice as many times as well. I suppose the best way to judge is which of the two would you recommend to someone coming from far away who has one round to play? (For me, you said Thanksgiving Point for the first round )

So, which could would I play more often? I'd choose to play South Mountain more often. Its a bit more fun and has better views, plus its a good challenge. But I think Thanksgiving Point is a better golf course overall.

[Jon Nolan]

JKM,

Thats all fine and good..I chalk it up to personal preferences.  I have played at least twice as many rounds at South Mountain than TP, so I guess I've voted in that sense.

Well, given where you live and the prices they charge, if I was in your situation I'd play South Mountain twice as many times as well. I suppose the best way to judge is which of the two would you recommend to someone coming from far away who has one round to play? (For me, you said Thanksgiving Point for the first round )

So, which could would I play more often? I'd choose to play South Mountain more often. Its a bit more fun and has better views, plus its a good challenge. But I think Thanksgiving Point is a better golf course overall.

Thanksgiving Point is an interesting place.  No doubt it's a fine course but often the experience has been lacking for me.  I haven't been down there in a couple of years so perhaps things have changed but...

1.  Mandatory relief from the ground cover surrounding the trees.
2.  I know they're better now but the greens were in savage condition for about three years running.
3.  Combination of point of the mountain winds and close proximity to a gravel pit isn't good.  I actually damaged an eye there about five years ago (scratched cornea or something.)
4.  Green fees X2 every other quality No. Utah public course.
5.  Mandatory carts.  I'm not sure if that's actually true but weekend walkers on that course would back it up to the Salt Lake County line.  The flow through 7 and 8 is really botched.

These things have stuck with me. The experience is part of the package to me.  I know that's a long-standing topic of discussion around here.  Although the course is very good my experiences there don't have me jonesing for more.

Given ten rounds at TP, SM and Soldier Hollow Gold (from my house 1h, 45m and 75m respectively) I'd sign up for SHG six or seven times and go from there.

[Kalen Braley]

Jon,

Good post and you've brought some good points forward.  I usually save all my rounds there for off-season because of the following as they relate to your points.

1)  Yes this is true.. in the winter time though, I've always just played it as it lies. 
2)  The greens are in pretty good shape right now, they have got this fixed.
3)  Bummer on the eye thing, its never been a problem for me as the winds normally come out of the south.
4)  The green fees are the best in the area during the off season.  When I play TP its almost always under $30 based on thier previous days tempature specials.
5)  Carts are mandatory and there is nothing that can be done about that.  There are some pretty long walks between some greens and tee so its at least understandable.  7 and 8 is goofy, but 7 is a really nice hole so I think it works.

To recap, I stay away from the place during normal season.  Its a little pricey and a little too lush.  But in the winter time when the fairways and greens are frozen and playing fast and firm, its good fun. And with cheap green fees its a pretty darn good deal, even considering the negatives. As soon as this snow melts, lets get out there...just make sure you bring the hip flask to combat the cold. 

P.S. I still need to see Soldier Hollow Gold, have yet to play it. For now if I have 10 rounds, I do 6 at SM vs 4 at TP.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Just a refresher -- when you COMBINE Colorado's private and public you would likely have the best of both worlds. That's what I said by my last post on this thread.

On simply the private side of the ledger the Grand Canyon State still has a slight but clear upper hand in my mind.

Yes, you should venture to a few of the other UT courses that have been mentioned herein -- especially the likes of Glenwild in Park City.

jkinney:

Yes, I've played Eagle Springs in Wolcott and it's a fine layout. The issue is whether it would crack into an overall TOP TEN for the entire mountain time zone on the private side of the ledger. Being the best in the greater area of Wolcott is no small feat but think of the neighbors that are nearby -- do you see Eagle Springs being a better overall course than what Greg Norman did in the same town with his 18-hole effort at Red Sky Ranch? Granted Norman's is available to the public to play but I reference it because I see the Shark's effort there as a better play from an overall design function.

Do you see Eagle Springs being better than what TF did w Maroon Creek?

Let me ask you this -- where would you place Eagle Springs among your top ten private in the greater mtn time zone area? It would help me better understand how you would stack up the various courses and what your preferences are.

Thanks ...

Jon N:

I've played Soldier Hollow and I when I went there for the first time about 4 years ago I was really looking forward to playing it. I was frankly disappointed. The course is brawny and muscular -- with more than sufficiient length but there's little from the design side that made me say, "wow," -- the feeling wasn't present that said to me I need to return here pronto.

I agree with your take on TP on a few of the points you made but the design strength of TP is thought out -- your main points tied themselves to the conditioning aspect which no doubt has to be accounted.

Incidentally, the Gold is from the hand of Gene Bates -- also w Miller at TP. One can't beat the fees at Soldier Hollow but TP is the better overall design in my mind.

Kalen, et al:

How much does the scenery elements found at SM influence your decision. Use a percentage figure with 100% being the max. I bet it's no less than 50-60% for most people -- if not more.

[Jay Flemma]

Matty, you have to get Pradera, Red Hawk Ridge, and Paa-ko in there.

Good call on FMR.

17 at redlands is not natural.  Jim built those conical piles of stone.

http://jayflemma.thegolfspace.com/?p=219

and here

http://jayflemma.thegolfspace.com/?p=249

Jim breaks down a lot of the design planning at Redlands in those articles.

[Kalen Braley]

Matt,

No doubt the views at South Mountain are very very good, but for me personally, I give them far less than 50% of the credit for why I like the layout.  The views at most SLC golf course are really good, so I can that anywhere.  Old Mill GC is an example where the views are just as good, but the course doesn't shine anywhere near as much.

To refresh your memory on the course, here is a photo based course review I did of the place.  There is lots of stuff going on and a good mix of holes.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30516.0.html

When I get home, I'll write a more thorough response as to what really works out there.

Kalen

[Matt_Ward]

Kalen:

Thanks for your comments -- keep this in mind, the massive elevatin shifts you find at SM really provide a significant shot values differntiation when held against the likes of TP.

At TP you don't have holes that fall as dramatically as you do at TP. Good players would not use driver often at the Draper layout but would need to keep the driver as a constant club choice when playing at the Lehi layout.

The issue is what course provides the most complete and varied design elements. SM for me is more about trying to the best one can with such a severe site. I salute the work there and do like the course -- but TP is the more complete and thorough course -- especially for lower handicap types.

Jay:

I hear what you say and I have played the courses you mentioned in your last post. Suffice to say, when one only has ten spots for a public or private listing you can only name so many courses.

Give you a good example -- you mentioned Red Hawk Ridge - an early Engh design. I like what's there but if you held it up against the likes of Bayside in western Nebraska I'd take what Axland & Proctor did there.

I also liked Pradera but again Jay you'd have to tell me what your complete listing is and how Pradera ranks among them. I really enjoyed Jim's work there and see it as a much better option than Sanctuary.

I also like Redlands Mesa but when I see it rated as the #17 best public course in the USA -- my only reaction is that those who think it is need to play a good bit more on the public side of things.

[Jon Nolan]

Kalen:

TP at < $30 sounds very appealing to me.  Let's chat when all this thaws out a bit.

Matt:

I've played Soldier Hollow Gold 5-6 times.  There's quite a bit there which makes me say 'wow'.  I find that on many holes the player is enticed to play the wrong line.  It asks you to commit to a shot your brain knows is correct but your eye is arguing strenuously.  Position on approaches can be 15 yards left or right and make a huge difference in visibility and line.  Course knowledge comes in very handy in figuring the correct miss. 

There are a few holes which are completely average but others are very good for me.  I think the par-5s are fantastic other than the very weak 17th.

As you know conditions play large for me.  The greens at Soldier Hollow are probably in the best shape of the No. Utah public courses.  Hubbard/HAFB might top them but that should be considered (semi-)private.

Give it another try.  You might like it on a second go. 

(I'm trying to figure out where my tastes/likes/dislikes jive or don't with the GCA.com conventional wisdom.  Not too sure I'm in line with the norm but I know what floats my boat.    )

[Jay Flemma]

Matt, I think redlands is better than lakota.  It has much more architecture, is prettier, and has better greens.  The back is unbelievable!

Matty, I never thought to do a time zone top ten (not that it's not a clever idea, it is!)  I just have other priorities right now than to do that.  Also, I want to see some more MST zone courses.  That may be my fave time zone of all BTW.

Can someone confirm that ND is in the MST?  I did not know that.

Matt, I think your list is fine.  You have pretty good taste in courses.  Again, I think we're back to double porterhouse vs. chateaubriand again.

[Matt_Ward]

Jon N:

Please don't link me to the GCA "conventional wisdom" crowd - my tastes, at least in my mind, are far more pragmatic and elastic than the simple-minded drones who concentrate solely on one particular style as the be-all / end-all.

Conditioning does impact things -- I have said so in other posts -- see the discussin on Apache Stronghold / Tom Doak's layout in AZ -- because conditioning must be at a certain base level in order for the design elements to shine.

In my two visit to TP I found the turf quality to be playable and of a kind that enhanced the design elements that Miller / Bates provided.

However ...

If you separate out your conditioning emphasis -- you will see TP has the better case -- happy to provide a straight-up match play analysis or by category of hole types (e.g. par-3's, par-4's, par-5's).

As I said before -- the course is long but the design details are missing. It looks like Bates did the course with far less than what was proviced at TP. No doubt the price is right when playing there so I have to ask you if price and turf quality are more central to your tastes than you alluded to initially.

Jay:

First off - happy holiday to you & yours !

You say Redlands is better than Lakotas.

Surely, you jest.

The 10th at Redlands is just a simple and fairly pedestrian par-5 hole -- good players lick their chops at the routine biride they will find there. You also have the lame 18th -- it's not a very good closer given the holes you find between #11 and #17.

When you say Redlands has "much more architecture" -- you'll have to provide details on that front because I think much of the fanfare tied to Redlands is based on the off-site scenery - having the Colorado National Monument in the vicinity certainly helps.

When you speak about holes that's a far different matter. Lakota came AFTER Redlands and much of what Engh did there was taken to the next few steps with his work at Lakota. Want to talk about greens -- try the par-3 3rd as just one fast example. The par-3 is not long by any means -- most good players will hit a short iron but the green is extremely artful and challenging at the same time.

I can name numerous other examples where this is happens. Also, Lakota, minus the 1st hole -- as the better case on the par-5 side with each of them testing the better player for the ultimate risk shot while still giving the higher handicap types plenty to consider.

Engh also tightened up the drive zones on Lakota with bottlenecks and other turning points. At Redlands you have more freedom and overall width -- much of it is not really strategic per se, but meant to provide more room to maneuver for the player needing such additional space for error.

In regards to the time zone -- only the extreme SW corner of ND is in the mtg time zone. So, for example, Bully Puplit in Medora is in the Mtn time zone but a place like Links of ND in Williston is not.

Look forward to teeing it up again -- are you headed to the PGA Show in late January ?

p.s. For what it's worth -- I think FMR is better than either of the two.

[Andy Troeger]

Andy:

Just a refresher -- when you COMBINE Colorado's private and public you would likely have the best of both worlds. That's what I said by my last post on this thread.

On simply the private side of the ledger the Grand Canyon State still has a slight but clear upper hand in my mind.

Yes, you should venture to a few of the other UT courses that have been mentioned herein -- especially the likes of Glenwild in Park City.

Just checking--that's not the way your previous post on this thread came across. I had thought you perhaps had seen the light 

[Matt_Ward]

The private side within the mountain time zone clearly has become extremely competitive ... with the likes of Rock Creek, Ballyneal and Sand Hills all pushing the bar higher and higher.

I'd be interested in hearing from people who have played all three and how they see them in terms of their personal preferences.

I'll be happy to weigh in after a few replies are generated.

One final thing -- does anyone believe any of the public courses in the time zone area would crack into an overall top ten with both groups merged together. I think one or two might be able to do it but again I'll wait to see what others say before chiming with my thoughts.

[jkinney]

Matt Ward - Eagle Spring belongs in the honorable mention category, IMO, for private courses. As a CLUB, it is without question a top 10 for the mountain zone, but that's another rating method entirely. The Norman course I've not played and so can't comment.

[Jay Flemma]

Jay:

First off - happy holiday to you & yours !

You say Redlands is better than Lakotas.

Surely, you jest.

The 10th at Redlands is just a simple and fairly pedestrian par-5 hole -- good players lick their chops at the routine biride they will find there. You also have the lame 18th -- it's not a very good closer given the holes you find between #11 and #17.

When you say Redlands has "much more architecture" -- you'll have to provide details on that front because I think much of the fanfare tied to Redlands is based on the off-site scenery - having the Colorado National Monument in the vicinity certainly helps.

When you speak about holes that's a far different matter. Lakota came AFTER Redlands and much of what Engh did there was taken to the next few steps with his work at Lakota. Want to talk about greens -- try the par-3 3rd as just one fast example. The par-3 is not long by any means -- most good players will hit a short iron but the green is extremely artful and challenging at the same time.

I can name numerous other examples where this is happens. Also, Lakota, minus the 1st hole -- as the better case on the par-5 side with each of them testing the better player for the ultimate risk shot while still giving the higher handicap types plenty to consider.

Engh also tightened up the drive zones on Lakota with bottlenecks and other turning points. At Redlands you have more freedom and overall width -- much of it is not really strategic per se, but meant to provide more room to maneuver for the player needing such additional space for error.

In regards to the time zone -- only the extreme SW corner of ND is in the mtg time zone. So, for example, Bully Puplit in Medora is in the Mtn time zone but a place like Links of ND in Williston is not.

Look forward to teeing it up again -- are you headed to the PGA Show in late January ?

p.s. For what it's worth -- I think FMR is better than either of the two.

1.  Thanks you, Merry Christmas to you and yours right back.  Can't wait to tee it up, have a meal, talk shop, and hang.  We should do that Jersey restaurant you once recommended (was it chinese?).

Matty, I like the back at Lakota - like the front more - but I like that stretch of 11-17 at redlands much more.  Also some holes on the front of RM - #5! - and 8 and few others mean that the best holes at Lakota aren't as good as the best at redlands.  Also Lakota is harder to walk.  Lakota and Conklin Players Club and Ventana Canyon (canyon course) are the toughest courses I have ever walked...but ventana only because the walk between holes is insane.  Re3dlands is tough walk too, but lakota has no walking paths and NEEDS them.  Also, lakota grew a ring around the greens which negates Jim's sidewalls.  they didnt do that at Redlands.  The "ring aorund the collar completely defeats the purpose of the sidewalls as balls hang up in the rough.

Again, we are talking about two unbelievable courses...it's close, and it's nice that we can play both.  again I think when we're talking about such great courses we're splitting hairs a bit.  One person absolutely could like Lakota better...even prettier.  I think it's a matter of taste.  I don't think you're crazy for liking lakota better.   And I can't wait to see FMR because it might be better still - you could be right about that. 

Why don't we ask the board which they like better?

Call me or IM and lets get dinner when I get back from Texas.

[Matt_Ward]

jkinney:

Maybe you can tell me what aspects of Eagle Springs you really like -- would be helpful if you can include any other Weiskopf / Moorish courses you have played to provide a comparison / contrast viewpoint.

You didn't respond about another private layout in the immediate region -- Maroon Creek. I only mention the TF course because it gets plenty of attention -- curious to know your comments (and anyone who might have played both).

Jay:

Yes, the meal still stands -- either China Garden or Cheng du -- either is first rate. Let me know when you want to make it happen.

Let me just say this -- the best holes at Lakota are more consistently ahead of Redlands Mesa. There are weak holes at Redlands Mesa where the gap is far greater in terms of natural character and overall shot values are concerned. I have spelled out a few on previous posts.

In regards to the walking dimension -- that depends upon how necessary an item it must be. If people want to walk Lakota it's doable -- you need to be in good shape to do it but it's not tougher than say a walk on Bethpage Black.

There are clear mounding issues at both courses but Lakota has the better overall consistency in terms of hole quality. My only real negative deals with the abrupt turning point with the par-5 1st. If the turning point were in the 45 degree range then the hole would be a real test -- a Cape-like hole for the player to decide how much to chew off. The rest of the front nine is nicely done with holes that call upon solid driving - Redland Mesa allows a great more freedom for the really missed shot to be played from that point. Engh made LCR a bit more discriminatory on that front and I find that a plus for the New Castle layout.

On one thing we can agree -- Engh's contributions to public golf in Colorado are clearly evident and worth playing for anyone heading in that direction.

[Jay Flemma]

Matty, email me with weekend dates starting after the 9th and see if we can swing it.  I need to meet Mrs. Ward (first name is?)

Maybe I can bring Shari or Nancy!

I agree re: Jim's contributions, but not just in Col, in the whole US!  I just like the better holes at RM better than LCR.  Again, ribeye vs. porterhouse.