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SL_Solow

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Re: The Best 2 Course Clubs
« Reply #50 on: December 15, 2008, 04:29:24 PM »
I note that there is a lot of earthmoving going on at Baltusrop upper.  I was there about a month ago and the work is significant.  I did not have the time to poke around.

Bob_Huntley

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Re: The Best 2 Course Clubs
« Reply #51 on: December 15, 2008, 08:57:32 PM »
Bob,

You observed, "It is an interesting  fact  that the 1929 U.S. Open was to be contested over the East Course, however, a torrential downpour the day before washed out a piece of the course and an access road. Without much ado the USGA elected to go ahead with the tourney on the West  and it has remained there ever since..."

I am not sure of your source for this, but it isn't true. The easy proof is the article that Tilly himself wrote for the June 1919 issue of Golf Illustrated. It was titled, "The Open at Winged Foot" and came out before the Open was played.

In the article he gave both a hole-by-hole description of the course to be played, the West Course. In addition, a graphic of the original course blue print minus anything having to do with the East Course was also shown.

He spoke to how the players would deal with the problems of playing the West course.

Not only was there no mention of the East course being the chosen course for the Championship with a switch to the West for any reason, there was no mention of the east course at all.

It is quite evident from this that the West Course was the one awarded the Championship and was planned for being used all along.



Philip,

I stand corrected and grovel in mortification.

I went to Ron Read of the USGA whi in turn went  to Earl Westmoreland, of the same organization, who reported back as follows.

Dear Ron,


The "story" about the 1929 Open - East vs West has good legs but
according to Douglas Larue Smith, the highly regarded (but deceased)
historian for Winged Foot the story about the 1929 Open originally
slated for the East course is pure "bunk". He insisted that all
historical records indicated that the West Course was always tabbed for
the Open. Doug left a competent replacement who may be able to fill you
in with a little more factual account - let me know if you'd like to
contact him!

So there you have it , I'm toast.

Bob






Phil_the_Author

Re: The Best 2 Course Clubs
« Reply #52 on: December 15, 2008, 09:23:59 PM »
Bob,

Don't grovel, though you have my permission to be dutifully impressed!  ;D

Seriously, the more one delves into the history of golf the more likely it is that mistakes in either "facts" or interpretations of events will occur. It happens to everyone.

Doug Smith's replacement as historian of Winged Foot is well-known out here. Neil Regan is a member of GCA.com and is passionate about Winged Foot & it's history.


Matt OBrien

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best 2 Course Clubs
« Reply #53 on: December 15, 2008, 10:00:59 PM »
What about philly cricket club. I think the new course is a perfect compliment to the old course.

Bill Brightly

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Re: The Best 2 Course Clubs
« Reply #54 on: December 15, 2008, 11:17:45 PM »
Matt Ward,

This is in response to your question: "How could Saucon Valley Grace be listed in the top 100?"

1) I forget how long ago this was, perhaps 20 years? Obviously, there were far fewer great courses then.

2) Twenty years ago, the course was not "tired looking" (re-building the bunkers is in the in range plan.) In fact, the style of the bunkers then was far more "in vogue" at the time the rankings were done.

3) The course certainly has some "wow" features that I assume many raters would like: many dramatic, expansive bunkers; the meandering Saucon Creek that comes into play very often; and awesome variety of trees.

4) It is hard course.

5) As I recall, twenty years ago the turf conditions on the Grace were the best I had ever played.  Not that they are bad now but rather, twenty years ago the conditions were superior to the vast majority of courses, IMO. So that would give it a huge advantage when the raters went there, right?

I am not arguing that it belongs in the top 100, just giving my opinion how it got there.



I always like it when I am able to intertwine US History with the history of GCA. Saucon Valley is a GREAT example of this. Think back to the post WW II years when Bethlehem Steel was in its boom years and this club was largely run by  Beth Steel executives. Obviously, the Grace Course shares the name of Eugene Grace, chairman of Beth Steel...so the courses there benefited from that influence. The club was a critical factor in Beth Steel competing for engineers with Detroit and New York, so when I say the conditionng there was better than most, there were definite reasons why this was the case.

Anyway, the club has transitioned nicely, as has the entire Bethlehem economy, after the demise of Beth Steel. And I find that cool.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 11:21:55 PM by Bill Brightly »

Andrew Mitchell

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Re: The Best 2 Course Clubs
« Reply #55 on: December 16, 2008, 08:03:52 AM »
Getting slightly off topic, but to me the best combination for a Club is a superb 18-hole course and an intriguing 9-hole one.  Two relatively equal 18-holers lead to a form of Club Gigantism which I for one find jarring and leading to a lack of focus as to what a "Club" is really all about--camaraderie, diversity within a set of common values, intimacy, and a devotion to THE Course that defines the club.

The two best such clubs I know of today are Murcar and Cruden Bay.  Dornoch was in this category in the 1980's, but is so no longer due to the ongoing mutilation of the Struie course.

Rihc
I don't recall Murcar having a second 9 hole course.  Where is it in relation to the main course?
2014 to date: not actually played anywhere yet!
Still to come: Hollins Hall; Ripon City; Shipley; Perranporth; St Enodoc

Rich Goodale

Re: The Best 2 Course Clubs
« Reply #56 on: December 16, 2008, 08:14:18 AM »
Andrew

Right next to it, between the course and the road north to Peterhead.  It looks very, very good--better probably than St. Olaf's at Cruden Bay.

Rich

Andrew Mitchell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best 2 Course Clubs
« Reply #57 on: December 16, 2008, 08:25:42 AM »
Thanks for that Rich I must have missed it last time I was there!

If you consider it better than St Olaf's then it sounds worth a play when next in the area.
2014 to date: not actually played anywhere yet!
Still to come: Hollins Hall; Ripon City; Shipley; Perranporth; St Enodoc

Rich Goodale

Re: The Best 2 Course Clubs
« Reply #58 on: December 16, 2008, 08:37:31 AM »
Thanks for that Rich I must have missed it last time I was there!

If you consider it better than St Olaf's then it sounds worth a play when next in the area.

Andrew

It's called Balbathie, 2700 charming yards and designed by James Braid when he did work on the main course in 1930 or so.

Rich

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best 2 Course Clubs
« Reply #59 on: December 16, 2008, 09:00:52 AM »
Getting slightly off topic, but to me the best combination for a Club is a superb 18-hole course and an intriguing 9-hole one.  Two relatively equal 18-holers lead to a form of Club Gigantism which I for one find jarring and leading to a lack of focus as to what a "Club" is really all about--camaraderie, diversity within a set of common values, intimacy, and a devotion to THE Course that defines the club.

The two best such clubs I know of today are Murcar and Cruden Bay.  Dornoch was in this category in the 1980's, but is so no longer due to the ongoing mutilation of the Struie course.

Rich

You can add Burnham to that list.  There is a very good 9 holer attached to the club called the Channel Course, created from land when the sea receeded these past several decades.  At least 3 of the holes are very worthy of being on the big course. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark Bourgeois

Re: The Best 2 Course Clubs
« Reply #60 on: December 16, 2008, 09:16:49 AM »
I will throw in Rye for the 18-9 combo. The Steel 9-holer has a few greens nestled beautifully in two dune structures, including one reminiscent of 6 at Cruden Bay.

For 18-18, I will throw out Troon and Turnberry (yes, there is a private club at Turnberry), both of which, being on the Sunshine Coast, offer some support for Rich's contention that Scotland might actually be a decent place for a 12 month club. At least until the Gulf Stream gyre shuts doon.

Mark

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best 2 Course Clubs
« Reply #61 on: December 16, 2008, 09:34:38 AM »
How is the second course at Baltimore?

The second course is okay. Better than most in the area, but no where near as good as the other. We have 18 holes designed by Tillie that were never put into play. I think we can still do 12 or 14 though. If our land sale passes, we might be able to do just that. Let's keep our fingers crossed for a re-zoning.

Are the 12 to 14 Tillie holes out at Five Farms or elsewhere?  Does the club still own land downtown or just the original clubhouse?

I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

JWinick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best 2 Course Clubs
« Reply #62 on: December 16, 2008, 09:45:44 AM »
I think it's important to consider the contrast between the two golf courses, as well as the desire of the members to play a material amount of their rounds on both courses.

OFCC, for example, has strong member play on both the North and the South, and there is a significant difference in contrast.   While the North has more fairway bunkering, tighter fairways, deeper greenside bunkers, and bigger greens, the South has larger fairways (but more trouble), more birdie and double-bogey opportunities, few fairway bunkers, and smaller, more wild greens.   

What other clubs offer strong contrasts?  I would submit Merion and MPCC for strong contrasts, while the likes of Winged Foot offer less of a contrast. 

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best 2 Course Clubs
« Reply #63 on: December 16, 2008, 11:05:16 AM »

What other clubs offer strong contrasts?  I would submit Merion and MPCC for strong contrasts, while the likes of Winged Foot offer less of a contrast. 
 

Excellent points. I've never played WF, but my sense is that there is not much contrast between the two, which would be a factor for me if wanting to join a club that has 2 courses.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best 2 Course Clubs
« Reply #64 on: December 16, 2008, 11:28:16 AM »
Although they are both parkland courses, I found WF East -- especially the first 10 holes -- to be fairly different from WF West.

JWinick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best 2 Course Clubs
« Reply #65 on: December 16, 2008, 06:35:05 PM »
Ultimately, Winged Foot has the same designer and the same dirt.   So, despite the greatness of the two courses, it's difficult to differentiate under those terms.  Ideally, you have a different type of property and use a different designer.

Phil_the_Author

Re: The Best 2 Course Clubs
« Reply #66 on: December 16, 2008, 07:18:40 PM »
JWinninck, Have you ever played the two courses at Winged Foot?

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best 2 Course Clubs
« Reply #67 on: December 16, 2008, 08:05:22 PM »
The points being raised about WF would make me favor Baltusrol.  While the WF courses may be considered 'better', the contrast in the two courses offered by Baltusrol would make it the better '2 course club'.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best 2 Course Clubs
« Reply #68 on: December 16, 2008, 08:12:16 PM »
What about philly cricket club. I think the new course is a perfect compliment to the old course.

Matt, I think Philly Cricket is a wonderful 2 1/2 course club!  Otherwise I would have nominated it.  ;)
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best 2 Course Clubs
« Reply #69 on: December 16, 2008, 08:35:23 PM »
My view is that WF East isn't that similar to WF West.  For starters, I think it's considerably shorter (maybe about 500 yards shorter).  It also has a lake and lots of rock outcroppings -- something not found, or at least not as prevalent, on the West.  If someone had dropped me in the middle of the course and I couldn't see the clubhouse, I wouldn't have thought I was at WF. 

jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best 2 Course Clubs
« Reply #70 on: December 16, 2008, 09:56:12 PM »
Here are a few private clubs that have two (or more) courses that are quite different:

Black Diamond
Colleton River
Country Club of Virginia (3 courses)
Greensboro Country Club
Forest Creek GC
Greenville, SC Country Club
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best 2 Course Clubs-Devil's Playground in ONT
« Reply #71 on: December 16, 2008, 10:35:37 PM »
Head north of Toronto to Caledon to play Hurdzan's Devil's Pulpit and Devil's Paintbrush...then, tell me how it went, as I've not yet played there.  Built by the Trivial Pursuit inventors, they might be fantastic.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Bruce Leland

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best 2 Course Clubs-Devil's Playground in ONT
« Reply #72 on: December 17, 2008, 12:12:22 PM »
Head north of Toronto to Caledon to play Hurdzan's Devil's Pulpit and Devil's Paintbrush...then, tell me how it went, as I've not yet played there.  Built by the Trivial Pursuit inventors, they might be fantastic.
Both very enjoyable to play and very different.  Wonderful club with a GREAT bar called Professor Rabbit's Hole or something like that.  Had a ball there the last time I played both courses.
"The mystique of Muirfield lingers on. So does the memory of Carnoustie's foreboding. So does the scenic wonder of Turnberry and the haunting incredibility of Prestwick, and the pleasant deception of Troon. But put them altogether and St. Andrew's can play their low ball for atmosphere." Dan Jenkins

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best 2 Course Clubs
« Reply #73 on: December 17, 2008, 12:20:21 PM »
OAK HILL, Rochester, NY

I would say I'm surprised nobody's mentioned it yet, but I'm not.  Rip on the East Course all you want, but the two Ross layouts complement each other perfectly.  They are fun to play every single day, and the West Course has all the carm you can ask for in a golf course.

John Lyon
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Robert Emmons

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best 2 Course Clubs
« Reply #74 on: December 17, 2008, 12:31:27 PM »
How about Belfair...Hilton Head.....RHE

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