[Jeff Fortson]

Despite its "utopian, communistic policies"  , I would choose MPCC for its contrasting combination of one classic and one modern course in one of my favorite locations on earth.

Let's ruin another thread Mike!


Jeff F.

[James Bennett]

I liked the 'test' that members would be equally happy to play either course.  I would add a small weighting to the preference of visitors to play either course as well.

In Australia, I would place The Grange (Adelaide) in front of Indooripily ?sp? (Brisbane), with the West courses at both being superior to their East Courses.  However, both venues are significantly behind Royal Melbourne and Peninsula.  These two are the pick in Australia to me.

I think that The National (south of Melbourne) could rank quite well if one of their THREE courses were eliminated.  And membership of a form is possible at Moonah Links (open and Legend), although the Open course could probably be joined with the National's Ocean course in preference to play (or so I am told).  The National probably runs third to RM and Peninsula (and a distant third in terms of proximity).

Of course, St Andrew's Beach could have been an interesting contender.  Perhaps when the economy eventually recovers, the courses (Gunnamatta and Fingal) will be revived from their 'missing links' status.

I would happily play at Peninsula if it weren't 500 miles away.  As for MPCC, well one can always dream.  Both of these clubs are excellent candidates for year-round golf.

James B

[Phil_the_Author]

Bob,

You observed, "It is an interesting  fact  that the 1929 U.S. Open was to be contested over the East Course, however, a torrential downpour the day before washed out a piece of the course and an access road. Without much ado the USGA elected to go ahead with the tourney on the West  and it has remained there ever since..."

I am not sure of your source for this, but it isn't true. The easy proof is the article that Tilly himself wrote for the June 1919 issue of Golf Illustrated. It was titled, "The Open at Winged Foot" and came out before the Open was played.

In the article he gave both a hole-by-hole description of the course to be played, the West Course. In addition, a graphic of the original course blue print minus anything having to do with the East Course was also shown.

He spoke to how the players would deal with the problems of playing the West course.

Not only was there no mention of the East course being the chosen course for the Championship with a switch to the West for any reason, there was no mention of the east course at all.

It is quite evident from this that the West Course was the one awarded the Championship and was planned for being used all along.

Pat, you asked, "How about best 2 course publics??? Would that be Cog Hill and / or bethpage?" I think it it is quite obvious where I stand on that question, but I think it is noteworthy that Bethpage is the ONLY facility, public or private, that has had THREE courses host USGA championships. The 2002 Open at the Black and the 1936 Public Links on the red and original Blue courses...

[Matt_Ward]

Phil Y:

You might want to check your history books -- believe Baltusrol can say it's hosted no less than several USGA events on different layouts -- the existing two - Lower & Upper -- plus the different versions of courses that came before the Tillie pair opened.

The 1903 US Open was held on the original course at Baltusrol.

In 1915 Baltusrol once again hosted the US Open -- this time on a revised layout.

Finally, in 1936 the Upper hosted the US Open again w Tony Manero taking the title. In 1954 the Lower got into the act and has been used for the US Men's Open ever since.

In sum -- Baltusrol has had four different courses host USGA events.

Dean P:

With all due respect -- the South at Canoe Brook is just a so-so layout -- not even remotely close to the level of the North and when you add the two layouts together they don't even register a footnote of attention when compared to Baltusrol.

If you want to name another 36-hole complex in NJ try the one in West Orange with Montclair GC -- the #2 & #4 nines are first rate (e.g. '85 US Amateur and several times the site for US Open sectional qualifiers) and are in my mind better than the North's 18. The #1 and #3 nines at Montclair also hold the edge over the South at CB.

[David Stamm]

I haven't played the Dunes, but I can't imagine there many places much better than MPCC.

[Jim Nugent]

Public side contenders:

Bandon (the winner?)
Black Mesa (soon)
Barnbougle (soon)

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

One can make a case with Red Sky Ranch in Wolcott, CO. Although the place does rotate the public availability each day to the two different layouts. The Norman layout is a stellar one -- the TF one less so.

Another that comes to mind is Stow Acres in Stow, MA -- did host the USGA Public Links championship.

Gents:

On the private side -- don't know if people mentioned Firestone in Akron. The North is a better all around layout than many might think.

Andy, mentioned it before -- the two at Whisper Rock would need to be highlighted among the elite best in the States -- the Mickelson / Stephenson layout is a high quality layout and one of the top five courses I have played in AZ.

[Phil_the_Author]

Matt,

It is you who should relearn your history buddy. Both the Lower and Upper courses contain features that were part of the original courses. In that sense the courses aren't four separate and distinct courses as the three at Bethpage are at Bethpage. It is that sense in which I meant it.

I'm sure you may think I am splitting hairs but I'm not... For example, would you proclaim Shinnecock as a club that has two courses that has hosted USGA Championships? What about clubs that have undergone extensive facelifts and redesigns and have hosted different championships? There are a host of them.

Bethpage is unique as the only club that has had three courses, separate and distinct from any others on the same site to host USGA championships.

[Sean_A]

I too like the "I don't mind which course I play" test, but I also like the idea of the second course being less rigorous and perhaps more funky.  Sunningdale is awfully difficult to beat for the first test though I admit to having never been to California or Oz.  The New is every bit as good as the Old and I reckon it is only because of the Old and New distinction that anybody really cares which one they play.  Saunton has to be a tough club to beat the for the second test, but I do think Portrush does beat it. 

While not a two course club, Gullane is often overlooked in these conversations.  I believe it is unique in that #s 2 & 3 are progressively shorter than #1, but they are also more interesting in some ways.  I sure wouldn't care much which of the three I played if I were a member.  In fact, I think I prefer #3 to the others. 

Ciao

[Jim Nugent]

Bob,

You observed, "It is an interesting  fact  that the 1929 U.S. Open was to be contested over the East Course, however, a torrential downpour the day before washed out a piece of the course and an access road. Without much ado the USGA elected to go ahead with the tourney on the West  and it has remained there ever since..."

I am not sure of ypour source for this, but it isn't true.

You convinced me that you are right, Philip.  As for Bob's source, don't know, but I did see this exact same story in Golf Digest or Golf Magazine. 

[Rich Goodale]

Getting slightly off topic, but to me the best combination for a Club is a superb 18-hole course and an intriguing 9-hole one.  Two relatively equal 18-holers lead to a form of Club Gigantism which I for one find jarring and leading to a lack of focus as to what a "Club" is really all about--camaraderie, diversity within a set of common values, intimacy, and a devotion to THE Course that defines the club.

The two best such clubs I know of today are Murcar and Cruden Bay.  Dornoch was in this category in the 1980's, but is so no longer due to the ongoing mutilation of the Struie course.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

A good combination of a great first course (or perhaps great 15 holes) and fun second course is Royal County Down. Wentworth doesn't count as it has three full-sized courses. Halmstad in Sweden has two exceptional courses. How about Hardelot in northern France?

[PCCraig]

Getting slightly off topic, but to me the best combination for a Club is a superb 18-hole course and an intriguing 9-hole one.  Two relatively equal 18-holers lead to a form of Club Gigantism which I for one find jarring and leading to a lack of focus as to what a "Club" is really all about--camaraderie, diversity within a set of common values, intimacy, and a devotion to THE Course that defines the club.

The two best such clubs I know of today are Murcar and Cruden Bay.  Dornoch was in this category in the 1980's, but is so no longer due to the ongoing mutilation of the Struie course.

I would agree to an extent. TCC-Brookline is a good example of this.

[Jim Franklin]

How is the second course at Baltimore?

The second course is okay. Better than most in the area, but no where near as good as the other. We have 18 holes designed by Tillie that were never put into play. I think we can still do 12 or 14 though. If our land sale passes, we might be able to do just that. Let's keep our fingers crossed for a re-zoning.

[Jim Nugent]

A good combination of a great first course (or perhaps great 15 holes) and fun second course is Royal County Down. Wentworth doesn't count as it has three full-sized courses. Halmstad in Sweden has two exceptional courses. How about Hardelot in northern France?

How about the two Portrush courses? 

[jim_lewis]

Rich:

Here is another point of view, and I cite Forest Creek Golf Club as an example. For a private club with two courses, it is good if they are different enough to have their own design personalities, but similar enough in quality that they are enjoyed equally by the members. As recently as 2006, both courses at Forest Creek were ranked in GOLFWEEK's top 100 modern. The South course has since slipped out, due to competition from several excellent new courses. While both courses were designed by the Fazio team, all who have played them must agree that they are quite different. The newer (North) course seems to enjoy more favor with raters, probably because it has the more natural look that is in vogue right now. However, most members view it as a toss-up as to which course they prefer. Consequently, play is almost equally divided between the two courses. One is not significantly favored, which would make access to it more difficult while the other has less play (like Winged Foot, for example). There are two-course clubs that have one course superior to either at Forest Creek, but there are very few where both are stronger.

BTW, regarding an earlier reference to the "resort" down the road from Tobacco Road. Some may not realize that the Pinehurst Country Club is semi-private except for #8. Approximately half of the rounds on #2 and #4 are reserved for members. My guess is that the majority of rounds on the other courses are played by members.

Jim

[Tom Birkert]

If one is looking for a course with a wonderful main course and a quirky 9 hole course then I think it's hard to beat Morfontaine.

On Sunningdale, many Members do prefer the New (and it is generally considered a stiffer test, certainly of driving), but mainly the opportunity to play two different courses which are both very good in their own rights is the bonus. It also helps with speed of play, with one course being designated for two balls on Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays.

[Scott_Burroughs]

I believe Bob intended this to be clubs with only 2 courses, not at least 2 courses, as several here listed have more than 2.  I could be wrong.

Also, Baltusrol is not so one-sided with the membership.  During my one round there (on the Lower) with a member, he indicated that the Upper is the preferred course by (apparently more than half of) the members.  Although, maybe that's the one-sided preference indicated above?


Pronghorn's pair are pretty good, too.

Will be interesting to see how good The Prairie Club's (18-hole) pair will be.   The 3rd course, the Horse Course, will be a 10-hole par 3 course.

[Matt_Ward]

Phil Y:

Yes, you are splitting hairs.

Hey good buddy maybe it's your history that needs to be updated.

Courses that have undergone major changes are not the same from what was there previously. Baltusrol fits that bill. You say "features" at Baltusrol were included. No doubt -- some were. But the sheer totality of the courses themselves were different -- and not in a minor way. No less than the USGA recognizes that -- check out their media guide as just one source to support my conclusion.

Phil, you harp on the dual terms of "separate and distinct" -- Baltusrol was and had four (4) different layouts to support that.

Bethpage was second -- not first -- good buddy !
 

[D_Malley]

the best 2 course clubs if i were looking to join one. would include two courses which are distictly different.  One of the courses i would want to be a top 100 rank capable of hosting a major championship.  for the other course i would want something short and sporty,  maybe 6200 from the back with a couple of forward options for women, juniors and seniors. i guess merion would be a good example around here.

[Matthew Hunt]

A good combination of a great first course (or perhaps great 15 holes) and fun second course is Royal County Down.

Mark what would you as the best 18 holes at RCD?

I'd have:

All of the Championships front 9
13th+15th Championship
5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, 11th, 12th and 13th Annesly

Can any club beat that?

[Jay Flemma]

Black Mesa will be one soon!

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Ballyneal and the course waiting to be built on the adjacent land.......okay that does not count.
Winged Foot and Royal Melbourne come to mind, but also Walton Heath Sunningdale and perhaps even Woodhall Spa.
The Berkshire is also worth a mention, but perhaps not quite in the same air as the others.

[Phil_the_Author]

Matt,

Not only do you need a history lesson, but your math is a bit rusty as well. By your reasoning, Baltusrol has had not 4 but 5 different courses on the same property!

The original 1895 9-hole “Old Course” at Baltusrol served as the foundation for its 1898 18-hole course that was 2 courses in one, commonly known as the “Short” and “Long” courses. It is this “dual” course that hosted the U.S. Open, Men’s Amateur & Women’s Amateur. In 1910 this course was upgraded and again in 1918 with new 10th, 11th & 12th holes. This course then served as the basis for the two new Baltusrol courses, the Lower & Upper.

Now by your reckoning wouldn't that really constitute another course with the addition of those new holes? But that would really be splitting hairs. 

By “basis” I do not simply mean that it occupied the same land. Everything from tees, greens, fairways and entire holes of the "Dual Course" were used to create parts of the two new courses. The following information can be found on pages 48-53 of the book “Baltusrol 100 Years,” the official history of the club. It is a chapter titled “The Old Course: Hole by Hole”:

#1 – Shunpike. “This was roughly the same as One Lower…”
#2- Orchard. This was essentially the same as Two Lower…”
#3- Alps. “The tee was in the same place as the third Lower fairway…”
#4 – Pond. “The fourth green of the Old Course is now the green for Five Lower…”
#5 – Outlook. “The tee for this hole was about where the back tee of the present Eighteen Lower tee is located. The green was halfway in the middle of seventeen  Upper…”
#6 – Sleepy Hollow. “The tee for this hole was on Seventeen Upper fairway…”

The chapter details how features from nearly every single hole of the old course was used and incorporated into the two new courses. It ends by stating that, “The 18th [Tappie] was essentially the same as our 18th Upper…”

Now the reason the USGA website states that it has had three courses that have hosted USGA championships is because this same club history states that.

Again, their reasoning is similar to yours. I have no problem with the statement that three differing (note NOT different) courses that have occupied the same land under the same club have hosted USGA championships. I do disagree with the contention that it is in anyway similar to Bethpage with three separate and distinct golf courses that were never part of an earlier course and used features to entire holes to make them (with the exception of a portion of the fairway of the second hole of the Black course which was part of the original 18th hole of the Lenox Hills Club).

I see a big difference. That you don't is just a difference of opinion from me...

By the way, most don't know that the original 1st green is still up there on the hillside left of the 2nd fairway of the Black and can be clearly seen in the 1938 course aerial...

[Jed Peters]

My opinion goes far beyond the golf courses--but that's also the primary decider.

I put MPCC up there for the following:

1. Courses. The two are the best combo, together.
2. Weather. Better than Olympic, and better than other East Coast clubs. Not as good as LACC, but other reasons surpass--like courses, etc.
3. Practice facility--one on the ocean, and one at the first tee? come on! The putting green? Great short game areas! Everything there.
4. Clubhouse--Awesome club house with seperate-but-equal facilities.
5. Dinner house on 17 mile drive. Dinner parties must be awesome.
6. Halfway house(s). There is a good one at 12 on Dunes that is so good, people go there for lunch and dinner when even not playing golf!

Runner(s) up:

Olympic, Saucon, LACC.

Never been to WF or Royal Melbourne.

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