[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I happen to love this type of hole.  Quite a few holes do not have a great deal of playability due to being overmanicured (USUALLY OVERWATERED).  Perhaps, the original greens did not have the fronts maintained at green height, but they were firm enough for a run-up shot.  Not to show off, but I hit a headhunter height 4 iron that skipped through the trough to 15 feet--shot of the round.  I could have hit a cut 19 rescue, or a hooked 3 iron.  I had choices, and the recoveries for a miss would all have been different.  Also, now that the front is green, there are quite a few great pins.  An overly aggressive shot ends with a devilish putt just as being short for the back pins.  This green has a very deep trough.

[ChipOat]

I feel like I should recognize the course, but I don't.  Where is, please?

[Tom_Doak]

Robert, how is this any different or any better than any other Biarritz?

That's what I don't like about them, there is very little room for interesting subtleties because they are so prescribed.

[ChipOat]

Tom:

This question is probably worth its own thread, but why does a Biarritz (or any "template"hole) not lend itself to amendments and variations under the guidance of experts such as you?  Isn't that what Old Macdonald is about?

Or are you saying that a Biarritz is so distinctive, and also a long one-shotter, that it's harder to be effectively creative with it than with a Short or a Road or a Redan?

[Tom_Doak]

Chip:

In general, the Biarritz seems to me to be the least malleable of all those template holes.  And of all the Raynor / Macdonald holes I've seen the least amount of variety in the Biarritz hole from course to course, if you discount some of the Raynor versions like the ones at Yeamans Hall or Westhampton where the front part of the Biarritz was not included, and which nobody seems to like.

For starters, the Biarritz prototype is symmetrical, which makes it hard to incorporate natural features.  It's pretty much a given that it has to be used on a long to very long par-3, or nobody would ever try to run the ball through the swale.  And if it's 220 yards long, everyone wants the green to be big to receive such a long shot.  And there you have it.

I'm not saying you can't take the same green concept and use it in other forms or on other types of holes ... but those wouldn't be identified as a true "Biarritz" hole any more than a long par-4 with a sloping green is a Redan.

I am particularly pleased that we found a natural situation for a Biarritz hole at Old Macdonald that breaks many of these stereotypes.  It was the hole I was least looking forward to building, until we found the setting for it, which trumps the symmetry others might have insisted on.

[Michael J. Moss]

Robert,

I'm going to guess it's George and Gil's renovated Biarritz at Sleepy Hollow, which is a part of the nine hole course.

To Tom Doak's point, I agree that variation on a theme provides interest. I would point to Round Hill's (Greenwich, CT, 1924) par-3 third as a terrific Walter Travis interpretation of the Biarritz - about 210 yards, smaller green with an elevated rear tier separated by the ridge rather than a swale.

Robert, have you played it?

[Tyler Kearns]

I find the recovery shots around the green on a "Biarritz" to be very challenging and more fun than anticipating whether a long, running approach has enough steam to get through the middle swale. Heck, you kind of re-create that shot on a bump-and-run chip. Perhaps it's just me, but that makes me more open to seeing "Biarritz" greens on a variety of hole lengths and pars.

I agree with Tom, that the green size does have to be on the larger side, but I think you can orient the swale to many points on the compass to add some variety to the template.

TK

[ChipOat]

Tom:

As always, an excellent and insightful answer that enhances the reader's knowledge of golf architecture (mine, anyway) - exactly what Ran had in mind as the exclusive content for GCA.

While we're on the subject of template holes, #6 at The Creek is my favorite strategic hole of all time for a couple of reasons.  Although #8 is advertised as the club's Redan, do you not think that the green complex on #6, despite being a par 4, is at least as representative of the challenges of a Redan?  With a little Punchbowl mixed in, maybe?

[Tom_Doak]

Chip:

I love the sixth green at The Creek, also.  I would never call it a Redan myself.  Yes, it does have the same feature of the Redan that you often aim at Point A to try to make the ball wind up at Point B, but that concept is not unique to the Redan.

I don't know if you have played Chicago Golf Club, but their punchbowl green is just as good as The Creek's, in a somewhat less impressive setting.

[Tyler Kearns]

I feel like I should recognize the course, but I don't.  Where is, please?

Fox Chapel, Pittsburgh area I think.

TK

[Ronald Montesano]

Damnit, Tyler, you beat me too it!  I was about to call out Fox Chapel, the only course beyond Lookout Point that hurls me back to bygone days.  I've played each one once and they live on in my memory like misty mansions.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I agree that Biarritz holes can be one-dimensional and far from looking natural.  They certainly cannot work very well on much of an angle.  However, they offer the player quite a few shot options to reach the same hole location.  The reason why this is a great Biarritiz is the green complex.  As I stated in the Fox Chapel pictorial, the pictures are not very indicative of the the green contours.  I'm close to having played every Raynor, Banks, and MacDonald course and this one has some wonderful soft humps and bumps on the back segment of the green.  Yale and Fishers Island have the most contour, but this green is very close.  Also, I am biased in favor of the deep troughs.  There are some holes with baby troughs--Shoreacres and Mountain Lake that don't create the excitement of the run through the tough shot.  Also, though not very natural looking, when standing on the tee to these holes, usually you have a feeling of confronting a dramatic hole.

[Ronald Montesano]

I agree with the last statement.  During my one voyage around Fox Chapel, I was the only one in the foursome with the knowledge on how to run the ball through the trough.  The other three tried to fly the ball all the way back to the rear tier; I in turn pounded a low, hard three iron that hit on the front of the green and bounded into and through the swale, up onto the back.  Even  then, I still had a 30 feet putt, giving a sense of the enormity of the putting surface.

[TEPaul]

Speaking of The Creek's #6 green, there's an article from I believe Town and Country, or perhaps it is in a little known Long Island magazine called The Spur in which Raynor explained that The Creek's #6 green (Punch Bowl) was taken from his original #15 green (Punch Bowl) at Mountain Lake.

Robert:

Even though it's pretty hard to tell from the best available aerial of Fox Chapel's Biarritz, it appears that hole did not have greenspace in the front section (even though I sure like it the way it is). I would, however, like to see them restore the bunkering along side the front section as well as the short fore or carry bunker the hole originally had.

By the way, from the front to the back of Fox Chapel's green is 80 YARDS long just about exactly the same as The Creek's is.

[George_Bahto]

Mike Moss:

The Biarritz at Sleepy is, without a doubt, one of the worse ever built by Macdonald, Raynor or Banks - none even close.

It's short and because of the severe downhill terrain, the swale and a little of the front of the (rear-section) green is not visible and there is only bunkering (rear) green sides. There is no second before swale (as such) - just a huge wide approach fairway.

I pondered what to do with it to improve the hole during the months I spent there but decided to just leave it as a terrible version. It’s just a 200-yard downhill hole as far as I'm concerned.

Actually, we just redid the greenside bunkering.

Original drawings by Raynor and Banks do not show the green(s) as so symmetrically squared.

Robert D: have you played the one at The Knoll?

[Dean DiBerardino]

A few more images.....

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Dean's pictures kind of show the internal contours I have written about.  You have to look closely, but there is some  definition of the subtle slopes that make this such a teriffic green. 


George,
     I still need to play the Knoll, Mid-Ocean, Yeamans Hall, CC of Charleston, Chicago Golf Club (probably in April), Hackensack, and Forsgate to complete the MacRaynor-Banks collection. 

[George_Bahto]

those are all some of the better ones

[Gerry B]

i am surprised no one has mentioned the biarritz at st louis cc - one of my favorites as it has a bit of an alps feel - as the hole plays uphill - in fact all of the one shotters there are fantastic save and except the reverse redan - which is ok - plus as an added bonus there is a 5th par 3 - the crater hole. SLCC has some interesting hole sequencing as well - 3 of the one shotters are in the 1st 7 holes - including back to back par 3's - hole 2  - biarritz / hole 3 - eden / hole 7 - short

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I agree about the 2nd at St. Louis.  You begin the round with a fairly stiff challenge.  A very good player can easily begin the 4 over on the first 4 holes without missing a shot too poorly.  Though not close in aesthetics, the 2nd kind of plays very similar to the 5th at Fishers Island. 
   One thing I have been reflecting upon is Tom Doak's criticism of how the template can be too one dimensional.  The not well laid out ones like Shoreacres are certainly simply that way.  I find that there is potential for quite  bit of elasticity if the front is made into green.  In the case of Camargo and Fow Chapel, they have the room to build some tees at differnt angles so that the holes could function differently than a template biarritz.  Also, even the courses without the front green section can corner the pins and move the tees way up for interesting elasticity.

[Kyle Henderson]

The Biarritz at Old MacDonald is probably the closest thing I've seen to the genuine "template." It's always hard to see green contours in photographs, but the typical Biarritz examples always seem to have fairly flat  surfaces aside from the swale.

Coversely, the Old Mac Biarritz features an insanely large green (I believe Mr. Urbina said it was around 22,000 sare feet!) with fairly humpy bumpy plateaus. I also love the mound/dune that guards the front left side of the green (generally the upwind side) to really test appoaches played to the front plateau.

Additionally, the view from the tee is none too shabby. Can't wait to give that one a go!

Chip:

In general, the Biarritz seems to me to be the least malleable of all those template holes.  And of all the Raynor / Macdonald holes I've seen the least amount of variety in the Biarritz hole from course to course, if you discount some of the Raynor versions like the ones at Yeamans Hall or Westhampton where the front part of the Biarritz was not included, and which nobody seems to like.

For starters, the Biarritz prototype is symmetrical, which makes it hard to incorporate natural features.  It's pretty much a given that it has to be used on a long to very long par-3, or nobody would ever try to run the ball through the swale.  And if it's 220 yards long, everyone wants the green to be big to receive such a long shot.  And there you have it.

I'm not saying you can't take the same green concept and use it in other forms or on other types of holes ... but those wouldn't be identified as a true "Biarritz" hole any more than a long par-4 with a sloping green is a Redan.

I am particularly pleased that we found a natural situation for a Biarritz hole at Old Macdonald that breaks many of these stereotypes.  It was the hole I was least looking forward to building, until we found the setting for it, which trumps the symmetry others might have insisted on.

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