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Sean_Tully

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Knollwood Country Club with pics of routing map added
« on: November 26, 2008, 10:11:13 PM »
Had the opportunity to look through a membership rule book for Knollwood dated 1930 and looked over a routing map that was also dated to 1930. Who would have been responsible for this routing? I will post some photos of some of the green sites for discussion in the next couple of days. Found the format for describing the bunkers to be rather interesting.

Tully
« Last Edit: November 28, 2008, 10:16:18 AM by Sean_Tully »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Knollwood Country Club
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2008, 10:20:28 PM »
Sean,

The original course at Knollwood was designed by Lawrence Van Etten in 1895, and I believe both Tillinghast and Raynor/Banks had input into changes that were done around 1927.   

I believe the somewhat famous 18th hole was largely from Van Etten's original design, but I may be mistaken.

Matt_Cohn

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Re: Knollwood Country Club
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2008, 10:21:36 PM »
Which Knollwood?

Sean_Tully

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Re: Knollwood Country Club
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2008, 10:30:00 PM »
Matt

Mike has it right. The one in Westchester.

Mike

Have you seen any routings for the course that would be from the 1930 period. Like I said I will post some pics of the green sites and bunkering. I'm checking my email at the Apple store.  I have not seen this kind of plans before and hope that some have seen similar routing styles.

Tully

Mike_Cirba

Re: Knollwood Country Club
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2008, 10:39:19 PM »
Sean,

No, I haven't seen it, but would be keenly interested.   

George_Bahto

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Re: Knollwood Country Club
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2008, 11:06:21 PM »
Golf Illustrated 1925:

“Knollwood - One of the oldest clubs in the district and one of the best. The only bad features of the Knollwood links are those due to principally to its great age and these are being eliminated in a remodeling by Seth Raynor and Charles B. Macdonald .....  (gb NOT - was Banks). When completed Knollwood will not only be and more difficult, but will be a typical Raynor lay-out, which means a first class course.”

.........  It goes on and talks about some of the holes ........

I have Seth Raynor drawing of the course titled:

Knollwood Country Club
New Layout
S. J Raynor, C. E., Architect

Raynor died during construction and Banks finished according to the Raynor plans.

The 18th at Knollwood may be on of the finest finishing holes in the Met area.

I’ve played the course and it is pretty close to the Raynor drawing but it appears some of the more controversial bunkering was either not put in or eliminated by the club - like cross bunkering.

They have a 19th, playoff hole - very cool par-3. There were a lot of photos in the old mags.

At one time I think Tillie was hired to modify the old course but he left the project and they hired SJR and CHB
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Phil_the_Author

Re: Knollwood Country Club
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2008, 12:54:59 AM »
      The answer to the question of who routed the 1930 era Knollwood course is complicated for a variety of reasons, yet there is information to be found. 
      In the July 1925 issue of Golf Illustrated there is an article titled, “Old Knollwood to Change and Lengthen the Course” beginning on page 16. The first 5 paragraphs of the article compliments the old course and details some of its history, but the next paragraph, the 6th, begins to shed light on the answer.
      “A.W. Tillinghast, the golf architect, was employed to look over the situation and make recommendations. The result was that some 40 acres were purchased and work has been started to build seven new holes which will be on somewhat higher ground, and rearrangement of some of the old holes will be made without interfering play. The new holes will be ready perhaps in July of next year…
      “Play will be reversed on the first and second holes, the first tee being at the second green. The third tee will be the same, but the second shot will be over the sixth fairway to a new green short of the bunker. The fourth will be a new one-shot hole to a new green in front of the present seventh tee. An artificial pond will be constructed in between. The fifth will be the first of the new holes with a tee where the present sixth green is. The sixth will parallel the fifth with a row of old oaks in between to a green back of the present seventh tee. The seventh will be a stout one-shotter, with a new tee and a new green, though the play will be over the present seventh fairway. The new eighth will be played from a new tee over the last half of the present tee over the last half of the present third fairway to a new green in front of the present eighteenth tee, a dog-leg hole with the approach shot over an artificial pond that guards the green and adds much interest…
      “The ninth will be played from a new tee back of the present ninth and tenth fairways to the present ninth green. The 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th and 14th will all be on new ground, The present 14th and 15th will be combined and the play reversed, playing from a tee at the present 15th green to the present 13th green. Play on the 16th will be reversed. The 17th will be a one-shot hole. The 18th will be down the valley to the present 12th green. The present 4th, 5th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th, 17th and 18th will be eliminated… 
      “When finished, Mr. Tillinghast believes that the Knollwood course will be one of the most beautiful, if not the most beautiful in the East. There is some consolation in the thought, and also some consolation in the fact that the new course will be easier to play, as the more arduous climbs will be eliminated, and while par on the course will be raised… [it] will be considerably easier to make par on the course.”
      In the July 1927 issue of Golf Illustrated, another article titled, “The New Knollwood Course” appeared. It told of how, “A three-day series of tournaments recently marked the opening of the ‘new’ Knollwood club house and course, of 6,300 yards – a thousand yards longer than the old one, with par 70, only one stroke more for the thousand yards…”
      The article goes on to state that, “The late Seth Raynor, internationally known golf architect who constructed Lido, the National, Piping Rock and other celebrated courses, planned a re-modeling of the Knollwood course which was somewhat modified and carried to completion by his associate, Charles H. Banks. The work required two years. The expenditures for improvements made, acquiring land, etc., approximated $200,000. The thirty-eighth acres purchased by the club…”
      The article goes on to detail most of the holes on the new course. In some instances these differ from the ones described designed by Tilly. For example, whereas Tilly’s 17th was a “one-shot hole,” the article describes how, “the long drivers like the 545-yard seventeenth…”
      Consider carefully what these two articles report. First, that Tilly did a design and that the club BOUGHT an additional 40 acres of land. Second, that work was well underway and that it was expected to be completed with the course finished and open for play the following year.
      Obviously something happened and the club dumped Tilly, but did they COMPLETELY dump all the new holes and changes to the existing one from his design? What could have been the possible motive for firing him and hiring Raynor/Banks?
      A hint might be what the article reported after the mention cited above about the purchase of the new acres. “The thirty-eight acres purchased by the club were found to be extremely wet in spots, and large areas had to be drained by ditching and tiling…”
      It may be that Tilly blew it when he recommended the purchase of the land the club bought and that the water and drainage problems caused costs to skyrocket. In the 1925 article it states that the planned project cost was $100,000 whereas the 1927 article states that the final actual cost was $200,000. With the Raynor’s success with the Lido course and others where major water problems needed to be overcome, it might have been only natural that an angry Board of Directors would fire someone, even with Tilly’s stature, who cost them that much money. That is but one possible explanation.
      Did the club purchase an additional 38 acres after the 40 that Tilly recommended? This seems unlikely, but it would take a careful search of the club’s records to ascertain this for certain. More likely is that the original mention of a 40 acre purchase was an approximation with the actual size closer to the 38 figure mentioned later.
      More importantly, did the club chuck out Tilly’s entire plan for new holes and redesign of the rest of the course? This also may not have happened and it is quite possible that Raynor used some or a good amount of Tilly’s recommended changes and additions. This also would require a very careful search of the clubs records to ascertain the answer.
      So who did the routing seen in the 1930’s map in the scorecard? I think that there can be no definitive answer without a lot more research.
      The bottom line is, whether Raynor used some, all or none of Tilly’s planned design, the course today is a wonderful one in which he could take great pride.
     

Matt_Ward

Re: Knollwood Country Club
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2008, 01:02:01 AM »
Ditto George B's comments on the quality of the finishing hole there.

Like so many other Westchester private layouts -- Knollwood CC gets little attention outside the immediate area.

George_Bahto

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Re: Knollwood Country Club
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2008, 10:49:15 AM »
Phil - thanks for filling in the rest of the details from the earlier article.

I have that info also but didn't want go into all the details here.

Thanks, again

gb
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Sean_Tully

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Re: Knollwood Country Club
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2008, 10:15:54 AM »
Guys here are some of the holes from the routing map that I came across. It is interesting in the way the bunkers/sand traps are represented, as well as the location of the holes in relation to the roads that run along the property. Hard to read  the name on the plan, but maybe you Easterners will recognise it!

Some interesting bunkering on the 2nd and 3rd holes, not to mention where the lay in proximity to the road!
I think the 2nd green may take the cake for most adventurous greens that I have seen in a plan, do any photos of it exist? Would love to see some photos of the course from this time period.

Tully


Holes 1-4


16th green


6th green


3rd green


2nd green


11th hole


Date and possible author of the plan that includes location as well


Holes 10-13


Holes 15-19


Sean_Tully

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Re: Knollwood Country Club with pics of routing map added
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2008, 08:53:48 PM »
Adding one pic and one mention of the 19th hole


16th hole


19th hole

Tully

Phil_the_Author

Re: Knollwood Country Club with pics of routing map added
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2008, 10:04:24 PM »
Sean,

The 1930 routing map... why was it drawn then rather than in 1926/27 when raynor/Banks did the work? Were there changes to the 1927 Raynor/Banks design and layout that prompted it?

Sean_Tully

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Re: Knollwood Country Club with pics of routing map added
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2008, 10:24:56 AM »
Sean,

The 1930 routing map... why was it drawn then rather than in 1926/27 when raynor/Banks did the work? Were there changes to the 1927 Raynor/Banks design and layout that prompted it?

Phil

The routing was found in the back of a membership book and I don't suppose that that was the only reason for its existence. I think that your last point may be the answer as they needed to have the changes to the course updated on a current routing map.

Any idea on the name printed on the map, something Carpassi? from Stamford Conn, there has to be some insight into who he was or worked for.

I just came across the map and found it interesting, most notably the 2nd green and would love to see some photos of that hole from around this period. Would hope that the club has some info in their minutes.

Tully

fpd

Re: Knollwood Country Club with pics of routing map added
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2009, 01:36:36 PM »
Sean,

Thanks for the pics of the routing map. As a Knollwood member it was quite interesting to see. It is very similiar to a large Seth Raynor map (circa 1926) that hangs in the clubhouse outside the grill room.  I don't believe any pictures of the second green in that configuration exist. As George Bahto correctly points out, much of the bunkering from these early days was either grassed over or never even constructed...hard to say which. Apparently holes 6 and 7 and 10-14 were the Tillinghast holes which were largely retained by Raynor and/or Banks.

BTW, the club just announced that Jim Easton, superintendant in charge of the west course at Winged Foot has been retained as the new head super. He was previously a first asst at Fishers Island, and also at Boston Golf Club. I think this is terrific news as I had serious issues with how the course was maintained by the previous long time super. Green and wet was the only way to describe it. Hopefully, Jim can begin to recapture some of the old charm in the next few years.

Regards,
Frank

Sean_Tully

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Re: Knollwood Country Club with pics of routing map added
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2009, 02:52:54 PM »
Sean,

Thanks for the pics of the routing map. As a Knollwood member it was quite interesting to see. It is very similiar to a large Seth Raynor map (circa 1926) that hangs in the clubhouse outside the grill room.  I don't believe any pictures of the second green in that configuration exist. As George Bahto correctly points out, much of the bunkering from these early days was either grassed over or never even constructed...hard to say which. Apparently holes 6 and 7 and 10-14 were the Tillinghast holes which were largely retained by Raynor and/or Banks.

BTW, the club just announced that Jim Easton, superintendant in charge of the west course at Winged Foot has been retained as the new head super. He was previously a first asst at Fishers Island, and also at Boston Golf Club. I think this is terrific news as I had serious issues with how the course was maintained by the previous long time super. Green and wet was the only way to describe it. Hopefully, Jim can begin to recapture some of the old charm in the next few years.

Regards,
Frank


Frank,

Glad that you found this thread interesting, I love looking at old routing maps and seeing the changes that take place over the years. I found a membership book for Knollwood circa 1930 at a local club and found the routing map interesting.

Your post caught me by surprise and it just goes to show how small the the turf industry is. I used to know Jim from his days out here in California and had lost track of him since he was at Boston Golf Club. It sure seems random in the context of this thread that he would turn up at Knollwood, but it sounds like he has been pretty busy since leaving BGC! When you see him again could you give him my best.

Tully


Neil Regan

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Re: Knollwood Country Club with pics of routing map added
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2009, 03:54:01 PM »


BTW, the club just announced that Jim Easton, superintendant in charge of the west course at Winged Foot has been retained as the new head super. He was previously a first asst at Fishers Island, and also at Boston Golf Club. I think this is terrific news as I had serious issues with how the course was maintained by the previous long time super. Green and wet was the only way to describe it. Hopefully, Jim can begin to recapture some of the old charm in the next few years.

Regards,
Frank

Frank,

  I think you have made a good choice. Jim has done excellent work at Winged Foot. He was closely involved with our recent recovery of some shrunken East Course greens. We have often talked about GCA matters, he is very sensitive to historical work, and I know he is eager to do right by Knollwood. It's a wonderful course and club, and the members will I'm sure like what they see this year. We will miss him.

Neil

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Grass speed  <>  Green Speed

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