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Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach Number 12
« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2008, 07:31:18 PM »
Jim, IMO, Yes, long is death. The green is raised up significantly when approaching from the rear and the turf back there is not conducive to playing delicate flop shots, regularly. The back of the green slopes to the front and the front slopes to the back. It's just not an easy up and down because it so narrow. I will augment my description of death as making par an elusive feat.

I don't seem to be able to post the schematic or the photo from their website. But, The schematic shows the contour that acts as kick plate and it's bigger than I remembered. While the schematic shows the apron's opening, my memory tells me it's wider than the pic illustrates. To be able to hold this green by attacking any pin, left of the right edge of the fronting bunker, requires hitting an area much smaller than the opening and adjacent kick plate. Players might be thinking 2 here, but anyone with any significant experience on this hole should be happy to walk away with par.

The difference in attempting my advised shot is, if the right bunker is found, that bunker shot is much easier then the other bunker shots around the green because you have the entire length of the green to work with and the other bunkers are much deeper. Again, I wouldn't presume to tell a pro where or how to play the hole, unless asked. (which don't happen) But I can tell you that this hole can and does bite them in the ass (bogey) more times than birdies are carded.

My apologizes for mis-understanding your placement of Pebble amongst those east coast courses. I will admit that the look from the teeing ground is different and not necessarily a world class look. The proximity of OB and the houses doesn't help that either. The bunker well short, on the right side, acts as some sort of deceptive feature because lord knows I've never seen anyone in it. But it does it's job of getting into the players head, even if only subliminally. My contention is that the hole may not look world class but it plays as such since most expect better than they card. The hole has serious mojo and is at the point in the round that turns back towards home. That change is important because of the winds influence. The observant will react accordingly. All others leave the hole scratching their head likely blaming the architecture for their self induced misery. That's what I'm surmising as why it gets such tremendous flack.

Please better articulate why you consider it poor and please do the same on the 14th at merion thread about the mound. Saying you dislike it is fine, but, if you wouldn't mind articulating why, it might help the discussion, or, at least assist others who may have never played the hole understand your thinking?

Here's a pic I found on the web, the 12th is in the lower right corner.



David, I'll state the 12th green at Spy is better than the whole hole. There's just something about that zero plane of the water that makes all these types of holes look similarly flawed.


"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Anthony Gray

Re: Pebble Beach Number 12
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2008, 08:11:53 PM »


  Adam,

 Great picture. Out of the thousands of pictures I have seen of PB I have never seen one from that angle.

  Thanks... Anthony

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach Number 12
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2008, 11:22:27 AM »
Adam,

If you suspect people of downgrading a hole because they score higher on it than they think they should you might reconsider the weight you put in their opinions...

As to my specific problems with the hole...if the best place to miss the green is a bunker 15 yards short and right of the green we might have a problem...especially when it is generally agreed that the green is near impossible to hit.  By any chance, is this bunker you refer to a gathering bunker? That was a joke...

I would likely play the hole from the back tee which looks (on Google Earth) to be 200 yards, give or take. It also looks to be 15 or 20 feet downhill. I am not thinking about using the approach to bounce the ball in for several reasons, the first of which is that the approach is only 4.5 yards wide (10 yards if you go bunker to bunker, but only 4 or 5 yards of fairway). So that leaves a full shot attempting to land on the front third and the right third of the green with no real reward or demand for any particular shot shape or consideration for the hole location. Sure, if the hole is in the left corner you can choose to be more aggressive, and I likely would, but the deal is the same with my target moved 10 yards to the left. Hit a high 4, 5 or 6 iron to a small area and hope for the best.

#12 is a physically demanding hole, no question...I swear I've heard as gospel on here that difficulty has a limited place in the quality discussion yet those of you who get up in arms about any criticism of this hole go straight to difficulty...there must be some charm to the hole that a guy who only played twice might have missed...


Are "Poor" and "Mediocre" the same thing?

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach Number 12
« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2008, 11:34:41 AM »
I always thought that it was conventional GCA.com wisdom that there shouldn't be any gurantees of hitting any hole in regulation, especially par 3s with tough shot requirements like this one.

I don't see why the green being difficult to hit with the tee shot is a big complaint.  Laying up short and right will lead to easy bogey/hard par everytime depending on how good the short game is.

I do think this hole has gotten easier with time as more and more players can hit thier irons further espousing a higher ball flight into the green.

Anthony Gray

Re: Pebble Beach Number 12
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2008, 11:49:10 AM »


  Why not put a new tee in from 150?

  Anthony


Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach Number 12
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2008, 12:06:35 PM »


  Why not put a new tee in from 150?

  Anthony



Why on earth would anyone be silly enough to do that?

Bob

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach Number 12
« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2008, 12:12:04 PM »
Sully, The bunker is not 10-15 yards short of the green and the kick plate is adjacent to the green.
No one has said the hole is the bomb, but several have said it sucks. That's the basis for my quassi attempt to defend the hole.
 
Anthony, You've asked three times and no one seems to be able to answer your question. As Pat M has said, the hole is fine. Why fudge with it? Surely moving the tee forward would alter the affect of the shortest bunker, visually. Add to that the mindset that no one, especially at Pebble Beach, considers shortening any hole. I'm not really sure what the forward tees distance is on this hole. It may be in the 150-160 range. In all time there, I don't recall ever seeing anyone use it. MAybe in the owners tourney where a six year old kid played it, but even then, I don't specifically recall it.

From their website.

Quote
The staggered bunkers in front give a false perspective on this long par three. Club selection is key in approaching this wide but shallow green. Check the wind by looking back at the flag on 11. The wind above the trees, undetectable by eyeing the 12th green, may alter your shot


"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach Number 12
« Reply #32 on: November 26, 2008, 12:12:24 PM »
Kalen,

Did you read something in my post that sounded like I expected a guarantee of anything?

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach Number 12
« Reply #33 on: November 26, 2008, 12:19:36 PM »
Adam,

Google Earth suggests that the nearest lip to the nearest green edge is 9 yards.

When the ball is in the bunker you will have a 12 yard shot to the nearest apron (from the nearest resonable spot in the bunker).

I never said the hole sucks, simply that it is a medicre hole on a great golf course.

Is mediocre the same as poor?


Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach Number 12
« Reply #34 on: November 26, 2008, 12:23:55 PM »
Jim,

I wasn't directing my thoughts at your comments specifically, just general rebuttal to what I've heard in posts on this thread and others that the biggest criticsm of the hole is not being able to hold it with the tee shot.

Anthony Gray

Re: Pebble Beach Number 12
« Reply #35 on: November 26, 2008, 12:29:03 PM »


  Adam and Bob,

 I think the hole is fine also.
But if the complaint is the green won't hold or you have to roll the ball on then make it shorter for these people so the can get on the green in one.
Just a thought.

  Anthony


Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach Number 12
« Reply #36 on: November 26, 2008, 12:38:37 PM »
Anthony, The green holds, it's just very exacting. Shortening the hole by building a new teeing ground complete with irrigation would surely be viewed as economically irresponsible since three players annually might use it.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

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