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Jay Flemma

Interview with Robert Trent Jones, Jr.
« on: November 21, 2008, 03:12:32 PM »
Bob will surprise all of you and please a great many...

http://www.cybergolf.com/golf_news/robert_trent_jones_jr_interview

Please remember, the intended audience for this is not just architecture experts, but all golf fans, casual and diehard and everyone in between. 

For openers, this was interesting:

JF: Who are some of your favorite architects?

RTJ: Tillie (A.W. Tillinghast). Great golf course architects fit the golf course to the land, and he's probably my favorite of the dead architects...

Michael Dugger

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Re: Interview with Robert Trent Jones, Jr.
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2008, 04:11:49 PM »
Well, that was an.......umm.......interesting read.

I noticed zero credit for Chambers Bay was given to Jay Blasi, the guy who was actually on site day to day. 

All I got out of him talking about Tom Doak was sour grapes.

Trent Jones Jr. had 20-25 yrs before Tom Doak came on the scene to blow us away with his portfolio of courses.

Doak course = I'm blown away

RTJ Jr. course = I'm not

He kinda talks in circles.  He makes it sound like Chambers Bay is going to be the first U.S. Open course which plays fast and firm.  Didn't he watch Shinnecock a couple years back???  Ironic part is it sounds like CB still isn't playing fast and firm.

Then he makes it sound like Chambers Bay is a "muni" but Pacific Dunes isn't.  WTF?  Chambers ain't chargin' no muni prices, folks.  I played Pacific Dunes for $60 once.  How are they any different?

But thanks, Jay!
« Last Edit: November 21, 2008, 06:12:23 PM by Michael Dugger »
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Jay Flemma

Re: Interview with Robert Trent Jones, Jr.
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2008, 04:46:57 PM »
Mike I can see why you night think that about the Doak stuff at first read, but if you think about how they played together at HP and CD, and you see how much he likes high pointe and the redan there, it's more even handed then at first impression.

Also - and this can't come through the printed word - but when I spoke with him and could hear his voice, he talked energetically and supportively about Tom.  He likes and respects him.  It was a friendly thing, maybe the same way Tom and C&C like and respect each other, but also want to outdo each other.

Also he says he likes PD and he's going to go play Common Ground.  I take it as merely healthy, friendly competition between two pros who respect each other.

Andy Troeger

Re: Interview with Robert Trent Jones, Jr.
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2008, 04:57:00 PM »
Jay,

Thanks for posting this one, I think its good to read another perspective, and ESPECIALLY one that we don't get to hear all the time on this site. I don't agree with all of it, but a significant portion of it makes some sense. I'm looking forward to his new design in New Mexico. I think Chambers Bay is fantastic.

Michael,
I think some of your points have merit, but I get more sour grapes out of your post than I did out of the article. He did say "we" when referring to CB on just about every item--he could have mentioned Jay and the others by name I suppose, but I didn't get the idea he was taking sole credit. His comments about Doak surprised me a little. But, we may forget that not everyone is a huge Doak fan and are blown away by his courses--I know a couple of them. I know I liked Lost Dunes a lot more than they did. I'd be interested to hear Tom's response to the RTJ comments, that would help the rest of us put them in context.

Jay Flemma

Re: Interview with Robert Trent Jones, Jr.
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2008, 05:04:43 PM »
Andy thanks for that reply (you too Mike).

To defend Mike a little, I can understand why he felt the way he did and his loyalty to Doak commands respect too.  You're also right when you say that it's a perspective we don't see much here on GCA.  I also think you might throw a little blame my way for not asking more follow up Qs on the rest of the CB team.

The thing I was most surprised about and hope GCAers take from it is that he knows a lot about, appreciates, and tries to incorporate archies we like into his work.  That was a surprise, but a welcome one.

Maybe it's just that he interprets those ideas a little differently on the ground than other folks do, which is what art is all about.  tell three different poets to write about - for example - a summers day, and you'll get a sonnet in iambic pentameter from one, a free verse piece from another, and a terza rima from still another.  What he calls art, perhaps some of us call style, but as they say, "God Loves Wondrous Variety."

Tom_Doak

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Re: Interview with Robert Trent Jones, Jr.
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2008, 05:38:37 PM »
Why should I be offended by anything in that interview?  He treats me like his own brother -- better, actually.  ;)

Like anyone else in this business, he's a competitive guy and I take some of his comments in that light.  I was surprised to hear him reference Pacific Dunes, since when I saw him a year ago he told me he still hadn't been there.

Bobby is an interesting guy.  What's really interesting about him is that when I do visit with him, we spend more than half the time talking about things other than golf.  He is a very broad-minded person.

David Stamm

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Re: Interview with Robert Trent Jones, Jr.
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2008, 06:11:11 PM »
Why is there is no plug for Golf Club Atlas anywhere on this Cyber Golf site? Unless I'm blind, I don't see any info on the home page or in the authors bio at the end of the article. It seems to me if you are going to use the GCA site to plug your own work, it should be a two way street.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

JNC Lyon

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Re: Interview with Robert Trent Jones, Jr.
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2008, 06:59:09 PM »
He doesn't like Donald Ross.  Enough said.  When does a Donald Ross course reject a good shot any more than a Mackenzie or Tillinghast course?  It is highly inaccurate to label crowned greens as a trademark of Ross courses.  1 out of 31 original Ross greens at Oak Hill are crowned.

Clearly anyone should have preferences in architecture, but it is hard to believe he can dismiss Ross courses so easily.  Why does he attack Doak for not building accessible courses? What about Charlotte Golf Links or Quail Crossing?  Why doesn't he attack Fazio?  It is also scary to read his comments about renovating old classics.  Who would ever let him touch a great old course after comments like that.


"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

John Kirk

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Re: Interview with Robert Trent Jones, Jr.
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2008, 07:56:37 PM »
Jay,

I read your article and liked it.  I thought you did a great job on the lead-in to the interview.

JK

Jay Flemma

Re: Interview with Robert Trent Jones, Jr.
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2008, 08:26:58 PM »
Hi Tom, JNCL, John, thanks for chiming in.

John, thanks for the props.  Like I said, there were surprises to be sure, but welcome ones.  I really had a great time working with Bob on this.  Tom is exactly right, Bob has many diverse interests - as Tom does too - and spending time with both of them is a fun, educational exercise, as equally enjoyable when discussing crossword puzzles, books, poetry, the kids, and the furthest things from golf, as it is to discuss Ross, courses, drainage and soil, and the PGA Tour.

JNCL, I don't know if I read in as much as you in the bit about renovations.  I don't think he's saying he'd remodel and old classic, but he'd remodel and old goat track instead.  Look how he praises Doak for Tom's ability to recall the flavor and intent of the architect:

"RTJ: What I've learned from Doak? Well one of the things I like the most is that he realizes that a designer needs great people around him, and Doak not only has good people, but he gives them a lot of credit. Also, when they get onto someone else's style, they are faithful to it in their restorations."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would take that as a compliment.

I think that you're right JNCL, that if someone were running around willy-nilly remodeling truly great courses that were fine, that would be a problem. But when he talks about it in the piece, I think he's talking about something more akin to what Strantz did at MPCC shore course rather than remodeling Cypress Point from scratch.

Bill Brightly

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Re: Interview with Robert Trent Jones, Jr.
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2008, 08:35:43 PM »
Nice interview Jay and thanks for posting. As Andy said, it is good to read comments here from an architect that does not post here. Which leads to the questions you SHOULD have asked:

Does he read the posts on GCA.com and if yes, why doesn't he post?

JNC Lyon

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Re: Interview with Robert Trent Jones, Jr.
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2008, 09:04:35 PM »
Hi Tom, JNCL, John, thanks for chiming in.

John, thanks for the props.  Like I said, there were surprises to be sure, but welcome ones.  I really had a great time working with Bob on this.  Tom is exactly right, Bob has many diverse interests - as Tom does too - and spending time with both of them is a fun, educational exercise, as equally enjoyable when discussing crossword puzzles, books, poetry, the kids, and the furthest things from golf, as it is to discuss Ross, courses, drainage and soil, and the PGA Tour.

JNCL, I don't know if I read in as much as you in the bit about renovations.  I don't think he's saying he'd remodel and old classic, but he'd remodel and old goat track instead.  Look how he praises Doak for Tom's ability to recall the flavor and intent of the architect:

"RTJ: What I've learned from Doak? Well one of the things I like the most is that he realizes that a designer needs great people around him, and Doak not only has good people, but he gives them a lot of credit. Also, when they get onto someone else's style, they are faithful to it in their restorations."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would take that as a compliment.

I think that you're right JNCL, that if someone were running around willy-nilly remodeling truly great courses that were fine, that would be a problem. But when he talks about it in the piece, I think he's talking about something more akin to what Strantz did at MPCC shore course rather than remodeling Cypress Point from scratch.

I agree that an update of a less-than stellar course is good (like MPCC Shore), but it seems he is critical for "borrowing' the style of Tillinghast at SFGC.  Why would a student of classic architecture want an architect to do anything else in the restoration of a great course.  I'm glad to hear he doesn't want to update great courses.  Unfortunately, other architects like that (Fazio, Rees) DO update classic courses with poor results.  We need architects who are willing to copy the true old style, not "update" it for the top 1% of golfers.

The accessibility issue still irks me.  There is RTJ Jr. course at Turning Stone Casino, Kaluhyat, in Western NY that is supposed to be very good.  Nonetheless, I have no desire to play it.  Why?  Because it is over $100, and it is not very walkable.  I'd rather play a great classic course like Leatherstocking for the same price or Ravenwood in Rochester for half the price.  Both courses are very walkable and not overly concerned with "Modern Golf."  Leatherstocking especially is supremely enjoyable because it is closer to "18 sticks in a field" than modern art, and the renovating architect wasn't too worred about my FT-3 Fusion driver or MP-60 irons.

I'm sure I would have a lot of fun at Kaluhyat or any RTJ Jr. effort.  It is doubtful, however, that any of his courses would be as indelible or charming as hack Ross's gems in Western NY.  And ultimately, we need more courses like Mark Twain in Elmira in modern golf than courses like Kaluhyat.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Jay Flemma

Re: Interview with Robert Trent Jones, Jr.
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2008, 09:28:48 PM »
Hi Bill, and thanks.  Nice to see you too!

JNCL, I think we're pretty much on the same page.  Bob hits a pretty good point when he says you have to cater to the clients wishes too.,  Sometimes you can't talk a client out of what they want - a Trump for instance.  But Bob came right out and said a great patron like Keiser makes all the difference.

He also talks about the conundrum of when a course wants both things:  a touch up job AND to hold a big tourney.  As doak once said, sometimes they are mutually exclusive.  I think he and Bob agree, you do the best you can.

As for Turning Stone, we did talk about it while we were at Torrey Pines, and I think even Bob would agree that it's hard, even by his standards.  My own review of it is that The Oneidas were desperately trying to draw a major - as they said to me once, "we're aiming to host a major and on that day Tiger Woods is going to sink a putt on 18 at Atunyote to win!"  kaluhyut was their first try at that, and they got exactly what they asked for, a course so hard, it gets by far the least play at TS. 

and you're also right, it's overpriced, by light years.  They recently gloated that they were the Number two course in New York State!...then in small print added for amenities and conditioning.  They charge $275 for the "Tour experience" and add in lunch, balls, bag tag, practice bucket, use of a locker with a pros name on it...all the things you don't need or care about just to jack up the price.  Pound Ridge is following the same model, sans locker.  You can play 5 rounds at Hiawatha, three at leatherstocking, and plenty at Seven oaks - your home course a red raider - for the same amount as one at TS and get more architecture and FAR less bad attitude.

But there are some wonderful Joneses out there.  I like arrowhead, and I'm interested to see CB.  The publics he talks about in the piece have peaked my interest as well.  I guess the article shows us what he'd do (chambers bay) when given the site he wanted and without the demand of winning a major.

CB got the major without asking for it, where all the courses that clamor for it fall by the wayside.  Let's hope that trend continues.  The site of The Donald on TV bragging about getting a US or PGA or ***shudder*** British Open would be anathema to many.

Cliff Hamm

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Re: Interview with Robert Trent Jones, Jr.
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2008, 08:57:45 AM »
Many valid comments are made, but sometimes I think this site is like the far left and the far right.  Nothing the other side says or stands for can possibly be correct.  If X person says it it must be discredited.  The bias toward certain folks is just not objective.  The reaction to an interview with Arthur Hills, Tom Fazio, etc. would be predictible. 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Interview with Robert Trent Jones, Jr.
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2008, 09:27:22 AM »
Cliff:

The only way to correct that problem is to do more interviews with different people, instead of the same old, same old.

Or did you mean that I should go away?  ;)

Andy Troeger

Re: Interview with Robert Trent Jones, Jr.
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2008, 09:44:48 AM »
Cliff,
I agree with you--I've grumbled offline from time to time that I do wish there was a little more variety. I feel like we tend to rehash the same points, and then when there is something different it gets "bashed" as have some of the comments in this interview. I think they should be challenged certainly, that's the point of the discussion group, but when it appears that posters looked through the article for every point they disagreed with it gets a bit discouraging to me.

Tom,
Your participation here is one of the things that makes the DG group great, obviously. If you were "on the other side" though I would wonder if you'd find it a waste of time to try to discuss your philosophies with people who were going to disagree almost no matter what. Do we think that if Tom Fazio joined the discussion group that he would do anything but have to defend his style to the point that it would be total frustration from his point? There are many golfers that love his courses, in the long run why worry about the smallish group that does not?

Of the three courses of yours that I've played, two of them are wonderful (Lost Dunes and Ballyneal) and one (Charlotte Links) is just ok as you've readily admitted. I'm looking forward to seeing hopefully at least 2 more of them next year. For me though I like to see a huge variety of courses that use different styles--sometimes it surprises me what I like. I wish we had that variety on the DG, but at the same time maybe I should be happy with what we do have seeing as its almost Thanksgiving!

Cliff Hamm

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Re: Interview with Robert Trent Jones, Jr.
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2008, 09:47:08 AM »
Tom...I was afraid you would view it personally and it was not meant at all to be that way.  I admire your work immensely, although mostly through pictures.  Did have a chance to play Beechtree this year and thought it was wonderful. Wish more public courses would be built with the architectural merits of Beechtree and the reasonable cost.  Hope at some point to get out to Bandon.  The accolades you get here are well deserved.  I would go as far as saying that you and C&C have brought on the second golden era of golf architecture.

That being said, my comments were not meant at those that say positives about your work and a few others.  It's the continual negativity that gets directed at others and it seems to be predictable. As with any art form people have biases as to what they like or don't like.  It should be objective up to a point though.  Again, if there was an interview with Arthur Hills I would be shocked if the posts were positive.  It should not be predictable.

Your point about interviews with others is well taken.  The discussions tend to center around the same old, same old.  I have learned immensely from this site, but do wish that opinions were at least a bit broader and more objective.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Interview with Robert Trent Jones, Jr.
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2008, 09:52:36 AM »

....... If you were "on the other side" though I would wonder if you'd find it a waste of time to try to discuss your philosophies with people who were going to disagree almost no matter what.......  

Andy,

I resemble that remark!

As to Bobby and the interview, I can agree that when talking to him, the discussion will more likely turn towards politics, philosophy, etc.  Once my brother and I met him for dinner by accident, we sat together and the two of them had a nice conversation all night.  Nary a mention of golf and I couldn't get a word in edgewise! 
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Young

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Re: Interview with Robert Trent Jones, Jr.
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2008, 10:14:56 AM »
All architects/designers whatever they are called are different.  While Jay did a good job I think he would even admit you could change the name and use that interview for 10 other signature architects.  What could be read "between the lines" was the interesting part of the interview.   I  dont have a problem with RTJr courses....enjoyed the one in ATL very much.... BUT JAY... the main thing I got from this interview...and it was good...was I had never heard of "perimeter weighted fairways"...great term.....and a very good description....I think it puts so much in perspective as to the era one is designing for....."blade" fairways for more traditional designs and "perimeter weigted" for the more modern designs.....it can even go to green complexes...."muscle back" or "perimeter".  It is also a great term for describing one's design philosophy....

Cliff,  I hope TD continues to take things personally.....he should.....IMHO the one thing that will come out of all of this downturn will be much leaner offices where the name architect will have to be the one doing the work and over the last 25 years we have had an era where I would bet some of the big firm "names" don't even know what is happening.  Now that doesnt mean they don't have very good associates....it means they have lost touch.  I also think "clean" architects are a thing of the past.....next time.....ultra detailed plans take back seat to guys that will take a job and be there as much as possible in the dirt.....with their guys...
I hope no one takes that personally....or maybe ;D ;D ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

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Re: Interview with Robert Trent Jones, Jr.
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2008, 10:41:21 AM »
Cliff:

(I see that Mike has jumped in and made some of the points I was starting to make.)

I do agree with you that some architects here can do no wrong (certainly not just me) and that others can get no love.  Anyone seeking "fair and balanced" coverage would have to admit that's seldom the whole truth.

By the same token, I think there are a few architects out there who want it both ways.  For decades they have taken any job that comes along and built many courses without style because their clients supposedly don't care, but now they are jealous of others getting accolades and they want to get credit for their artistic flair ... even when it is probably some young associate actually doing the artistry.  It's even possible that one or two such people may have been mentioned in the course of this thread.

Then again, anybody in the 1920's would probably have characterized Donald Ross in that same camp.


Andy:

You are probably right that if I was Tom Fazio, I couldn't come on here and discuss my work at this point.  It wouldn't be that way if he had started years ago, though ... then you all would know him and like him, and he might get as much credit for his design work as Jeff Brauer does!  But, I don't really think Mr. Fazio cares much what this DG thinks, he is laughing all the way to the bank.

Kalen Braley

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Re: Interview with Robert Trent Jones, Jr.
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2008, 10:52:02 AM »
The part of the interview that struck me as odd was all the questions directed at RTJ Jr having to compare his work to other architects.  It seemed an article such as that was supposed to be about his work, not having to be put on the defensive by comparing his work to others.

Just my $.02

Mike_Young

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Re: Interview with Robert Trent Jones, Jr.
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2008, 11:25:38 AM »
Cliff:

(I see that Mike has jumped in and made some of the points I was starting to make.)


TD,
I think I am misunderstood.....jumped in?   I thought I treaded very lightly ;D ;D ;D ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Interview with Robert Trent Jones, Jr.
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2008, 12:47:12 PM »
No, Mike, you just beat me to the draw ... I didn't mean that you were being difficult.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Interview with Robert Trent Jones, Jr.
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2008, 12:59:05 PM »
Mike Y,

Interesting take on getting your hands dirty.  I agree that going to an interview and stressing personal service (in place of getting an associate) is probably a non starter these days, because most clients know we aren't that busy and want the head guy involved a lot of the time.  I don't think the dynamics of the signature design are going to change a lot.  I think the owners of courses built next year will simply be able to brag more that the sig designer REALLY designed my course!

Also, while you are design-build, you see design builders benefitting.  While I do see some of that, and my tendency has been to draw plans with independent field evaluations, which affects my perception as much as your experience affects yours, with all the financial shennanigans going on in other industries, I can also see a clear separation and more financial accounting being part of golf projects now. In general terms, we have lagged behind other construction industries in project managment sophisitication.

If a golf course gets financed in these times, I would just figure the bank would probably want more controls on the loan.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Rob Rigg

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Re: Interview with Robert Trent Jones, Jr.
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2008, 02:06:19 PM »
Jay,

Thanks for posting the article. It definitely stirred some thoughts and emotions which is great - "to each his own" as they say.

I didn't realize that CB was the first site to use "free form" or "ribbon tees" . . .  ???

When he discussed CB it was obvious that he felt great pride and passion about what his team there which is very understandable.

Do you think he feels at all slighted that he has not been able to work on other spectacular sites? eg) Bandon, the mid-western plains, New Zealand, Long Island, etc. Where he could put his work up against Doak, C&C, DMK - side by side?

I think it would be great to have architects like RTJ and TF posting on the site - as unrealistic as that may be.

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